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8 Reales Pillar Dollar 1744 Mozambique.

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New Member
Greece
11 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gerta to your friends list
Thanks!
.... waiting
Edited by gerta
11/13/2019 4:17 pm
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United States
189767 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  4:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list
So sorry to say, but I am not familiar with the coin.

However, I have full confidence that others will be.
New Member
Greece
11 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  4:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gerta to your friends list
We do not have to know everything about coins.
And wanting it is impossible.
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United States
189767 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list
Well in that case, my non-expert opinion is that I like it.
New Member
Greece
11 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  5:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gerta to your friends list
I like it too. I'm not sure about the authenticity. If it is I will love it more.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  6:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list
Welcome to the group Gerta
I don't see anything blatant that makes me think the coin is a counterfeit, however 1744 is a common counterfeit date and hard to tell from a photo. I do not like the look of the counterstamp and that would be enough to keep me from buying the coin if I had seen it somewhere. That said, if the coin is real and the counterstamp is real you have a very rare and valuable coin so I would suggest sending the coin to NGC for certification.
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Greece
11 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2019  3:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gerta to your friends list
Thank you for the comprehensive answer. Similarly I don't see anything strange in the coin but it was good that I got an answer to it. As for my counterstamp it seems simpler or better badly struck. However before buying I had been looking for at least one of these features. I remember a bit of PCGS. Difficult coins ... I'll ship to NGC or PCGS. I hope everything goes well.
Thanks again.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2019  03:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list
The host coin looks genuine.

The Mozamb. stamp? Not so sure.
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 Posted 11/16/2019  10:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list
Certainly the counterstamp looks different from examples found on a web search (albeit on different host coins).
https://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotv...dd32f61f1093
https://coins.ha.com/itm/mozambique...3042-30216.s
If I were to describe the differences, I would say the letters are more regular in these other examples, and the base of the stamp is clearly flat, not sharply angled as yours appears (though it is hard to see in the photo, so maybe I am wrong).
Edited by tdziemia
11/16/2019 10:28 am
Valued Member
United States
191 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2019  10:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Safaga to your friends list
I notice the counter stamp on the OP's coin differs from the photo in Krause. Theirs seems to have thicker lines. However, I admit I have no expertise. However, as a collector of these types of coins, I am aware that these counter stamps of African, Middle Eastern, and Asian states are often counterfeited. It seems logical that it's easier to counterfeit a counter stamp onto an original coin that it is to counterfeit an entire coin.
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Greece
11 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2019  11:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gerta to your friends list
Thank you for your answers.
Counterstamp was my main concern. See if you would like a better photo of my coin and a second coin that was sold by a notable Spanish auction house. The coin is uncertified. I don't know if it's genuine mine but there are definitely differences between counterstamp.
8-Reales-Pillar-Dollar-1744-Mozambique.
8-Reales-Pillar-Dollar-1744-Mozambique.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2019  2:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Sorry to enter the discussion late.

There is no doubt in my mind that the stamp is false. The way the circle was added to create the R part of the monogram does not match any of the genuine stamps I am aware of.

Regarding the host coin, I am uncertain the coin is genuine. The only way to tell is to do an XRF test looking for Gold in the alloy. I have seen several 1744 8Rs that conclusively tested as modern silver copies which look about as good.

I would focus on the edge design and the overlaps. In 1744 the Mexico City mint had not matched the edge die length so that the overlaps should be easy to spot on a high grade coin. The overlaps must be precisely the same length and they must be 180 degrees apart. Second I would ask to see an in focus picture of the lotus design. Even blurred something seems off.

Regarding having NGC authenticate this coin, I do not believe they will do any more than a visual inspection of the surfaces for the base fee. They will most likely encapsulate the thing. For this coin it is a waste of money. Typically NGC does not even weigh the coin unless you pay extra. They may now also do an XRF test but it will cost you extra and it will probably use a 20-30 micron deep hand held unit. A Laboratory level 100 micron or deeper XRF test would be far better and more accurate for authentication.

I may sound very negative, but after many years of authentication I would say that 8 out of 10 Pillar Dollars of this type that I have encountered prove to be forgeries when tested scientifically.

No one has asked - where did this coin come from?

I would guess the counterstamp was applied in Spain by the notorious group of forgers we all know from the last 10-20 years on ebay. They are the ones that created the printed booklet I illustrated in my book on counterfeit 8Rs. This source typically uses genuine cull coins or forgeries as hosts. This coin is not a cull. So if it comes from any of the names associated with the forgery ring I would change my opinion to completely bad.

Finally did you notice the verdigris on the reverse? That always puts me off when I see it on the reverse of counter stamped coins because underlying copper can be exposed by the application of the c/s.
Valued Member
Romania
86 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2019  3:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bogdanjovi to your friends list
Finnaly some light, Mr Gurney is on & .
There is one thing weird for me on the pillar side, at 4:00 the dentils are very short, without any compensation on opposite side...
New Member
Greece
11 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  12:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gerta to your friends list
Thank you for your interest and information. I would like to clarify that the coin was purchased off ebay. I've gotten valuable coins from this store and far more expensive than the 8Rs. He was probably fooled too. It's a lesson for me.
Please clarify the point with lotus to photograph it again
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United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2019  12:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
The lotus edge design was punched into a pair of flat bar edge dies using one punch applied several times to each die. The dies were mounted in a Mill (Spanish usage) or Castang Machine (US and French usage). One die was fixed in place and the other was moved parallel to the fixed die. The blank for the coin rolled under pressure between the two dies. Each die cut exactly half the edge design and the overlaps in the design (2 of them) occur exactly opposite one another. It is critical therefore that the lengths of the two overlaps are identical in length and are 180 degrees apart. That is the physics of the milling machine.

The next thing is the design of the lotus itself - because one die was used multiple times the segments should be visible. Spacing and design of each lotus must be identical (allowing for post strike damage). My comment was meant to indicate that by the late 1760s the Mexico City mint had adjusted the punch length and controlled the length of the circumference of the blank so that the seams were almost invisible. However in the 1740s this had not yet been accomplished so the seams should be readily visible.

The edge design should not wobble side to side rapidly and ONE overlap was NEVER used.

Double cut edge designs are extremely rare because it was a totally manual process and why do unnecessary work. Mint workers were paid based on total value produced.

Pop outs are seem on counterfeits or forgeries only because the genuine mill had a lip or deep groove to preclude any blank from popping out of the mill prematurely.

Edges of coins were NEVER filed to adjust the total weight.
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