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1965 5 Cent Nickel Possible New Variety? Long Post With Pics

 
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Valued Member

Canada
197 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  04:00 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Long post Alert!

Please read the whole thing before commenting so that you know all the details before hand.

Hey guys, so I know that claiming to have found a New variety is a pretty big assumption considering I am new to collecting and I'm still finding my way around but I would like some opinions on this and that is why I did as much digging as possible before posting this.

To start it off I was looking through my 60's to 70's nickels and I had a bunch of 1965's from when I was searching for the Large Bead and I forgot about them for a while. Well tonight I stumbled across something while checking them out, I was looking at the dates of them all and one stood out more than the others.

Here you will see I have a picture collage of Four 1965 Canadian 5 Cent nickels. no big deal right? Well if you look closely to the First top left photo the number 5 is quite different than the other 3.





If you haven't noticed by now the number 5 in the first photo looks thinner than the others, that's because it is! Not only that but it is a lot further away from the 6 than the others are. I took the liberty of marking the photo where I measured the gap between the 6 and 5. But not only that, I also measured it!

To do the measurements I knew I couldn't get something small enough to measure this gap so I took my Microscope, zoomed in and I took photos of each coin individually from the exact same distance and than put them together, after I was done this I used a program called Gimp.

In this program there is a tool you can use to measure "Pixels" now I understand using pixels as a measurement is not 100% accurate I'm sure BUT it would still provide me with enough proof that there IS a gap difference on this coin compared to the others.

I measured the pixels from the exact same starting point and ending point between the 6 and the 5 on each coin, then I wrote down each "Pixel Count" and low and behold there was a pretty big (mm) difference.






Now how did I get a measurement from pixels? there is a Pixel to MM converter online so I took my pixel measurements and punched them in 3 out of the 4 coins came back with 48 Pixels converting to 12.7mm. The first coin came back with 56 Pixels converting to 14.816666667mm. Now that might not look like a big difference but 56 pixels - 48 pixels = 8 pixels (how big the gap difference is) it is off by almost 3mm but when I take legitimate measurements possibly more . How do I know that the "pixel math" is correct? Well I used the exact same camera, from the exact same distance and the exact same pixel size for each photo.

Now again like I said pixels are not 100% accurate but it does show a legitimate gap witch could be a lot bigger than my calculations, once I figure out a proper way of measuring these gaps I will come back with solid numbers. But for the mean time some more things to point out is the Stems of the number 5 and the noticeable gap between the Roof of the 5 and the curve and how thin the "Stems" are. I have not yet measured this gap or the stems but I'm sure you can already see the difference.





To leave off I still plan to get proper measurements done once I figure out how and yes I also thought about the fact that depending on the condition of the coin wear can make things "Fatter" witch indeed would leave the possibility that the size difference and gaps are only due to squished numbers. But I also did these exact measurements on a picture of a BU coin and the gaps/differences were still there. So that leaves me to believe condition has no play in this. I hope you all liked my post and I plan to follow up with more details once I get the measurements done correctly, I thought of everything before posting this and I am left with the thought that even if this is a new variety it could be a tiny one that does not make it any more special than the rest. I just thought I would share the research I have been doing.
Edited by JohnWayne007
11/18/2019 05:24 am
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 Posted 11/18/2019  07:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Thinner" digits/lettering can come from crisp strikes from new working dies and no coin "wear" due to circulation. Each impression on a coin is slightly tapered so the planchet doesn't stick into the working die, so the precise "top" of anything on the coin is narrower at the top than the bottom. Any coin with circulation "wear" will appear fatter than a new crisply struck coin. Worn working dies also will make the coin design "fatter". Your coin is just due to die state, in my opinion.
Edited by okiecoiner
11/18/2019 6:34 pm
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Canada
4378 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  08:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Most dies last around 200,000 or more strikes, as mentioned above, and I yesterday about Hans Zoel's handbooks of many minor varieties, very few collectors or auction houses ever quotes his numbers. You are using today's tech to measure a coin that was never intended to perfect in the first place. Large beads and small beads I can see why collectors would like to have and find.
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 Posted 11/18/2019  08:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
JohnWayne-
I can appreciate your work and effort that went into this and
even if you are right, how would anyone be able to identify
the difference between the two just by looking at them.
Unless there is a marker of some sort that you can distinquish
between the two, it would never be recognised as a variety.
Nobody is going to put the effort that you did to tell the
difference between minor varieties.
Valued Member
Canada
197 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  12:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Everything you guys have said I did take into consideration before making this post and I understand that even if this is the case and I were to be right a lot of people would have a hard time finding this variety IF it were one. But my theory is everyone was too busy looking for the Large Bead variety that no one (or very little) paid little to no attention to the actual date and spacing/size ect of the numbers. Just like the 1977 High & Low 7 theres not much of a difference there between the height of the 7 but it's still a difference that has finally become more noticed. Now regarding markers to be able to distinguish this one from others the thing is I picked this coin out of a lot of about 40 1965's and out of all of them this one is different in more than just 1 way without the need of the microscope.

the outside rim with the beads on the reverse of the coin are not flat, it is con-caved probably due to something regarding the striking process witch makes it easy enough for me to point this coin out amongst others In Hand, there is also this notch that I use as a marker, I think its just MD but there is a noticeable notch there that are usually common in Doubled Die, so I have read.



Closer view of the notch (bottom left)



Again I did try to think of everything when it came to weather or not this is a new variety like you guys said, Die condition, circulation wear and that is why I also did these measurements against the newest 1965 5 cent coin I could find online and they still didn't match up. The only thing that is going to convince me that there is nothing special about this coin is if I have another in the exact same condition or newer side by side to do manual measurements on.

I tested these measurements against 20 others (of my own) in varying conditions before posting this and every single one of them were the same except this one. I felt like I needed to be sure so I didn't just test it against 1 or 2 or 3 I did it to half of a roll and plan to check the other half today. All I know is numbers don't lie when it comes to showing gaps/spaces and my numbers are too consistent for me to not dig a bit deeper.

I understand it could be due to a Crisply struck coin like okiecoiner said but I have searched and not found any matching these numbers no matter the condition regardless of if it is VG or BU condition it did not make a difference. Again this could be nothing, but it could be something so I don't mind taking the time to find out.
Valued Member
Canada
197 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  1:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another thing I would like to add that could also help others identify this variety (if it is one) is that this could be more relevant to the Mint Sets and not the circulation coins, as this coin also has a Frosted queen and I don't think they put that kind of finish on the circulation coins.
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 Posted 11/18/2019  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I remember a post on 1965 10 cent coins similar to this about the 5's pointed / blunt
Edited by papeldog
11/18/2019 2:25 pm
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 Posted 11/18/2019  5:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't see anything that strikes me as a potential recognizable variety.
Valued Member
Canada
197 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I finished going through another 20 coins and still coming back with the same measurements.

What I did was again take a picture with my microscope with the coin in question and another one I had at the exact same distance, this time I put a measuring tape over my computer screen and measured from the exact same spots from the exact same distance.





as you can see the coin on the left has a 49mm gap, the other circulation coin has a 45mm gap, so what I did next was I found a picture online from Numista, zoomed in to the exact same size (while having my coin under the microscope) and did my measurements again.





as you can see there is only a 1mm difference but that is only due to not being able to take proper measurements without the coin from Numista in hand. Regardless the coin they used for that photo was probably in very good shape (better than mine) and yet the 5 was still different, as you can see the stem on the bottom is more narrow and long, the stem on top of the 6 is also more narrow and longer. What I have realized is that this coin has Flat almost frosted numbers, all the other coins are rounded/thicker (and in way better condition than mine) again even if my coin was in BU condition there would still be a difference.

With all that said I plan to buy a 1965 Mint Set and do my measurements again. I planned to purchase a set anyway so this gives me more reason to.

Incase anyone was wondering yes I took measurements from other places as well not just at the tops and regardless of where I started/finished there was still a difference.
Edited by JohnWayne007
11/18/2019 6:40 pm
Valued Member
Canada
197 Posts
 Posted 11/19/2019  12:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i have came to the conclusion that this 5 really is different than the rest. I did a few Overlay & Inverted Overlay shots after cutting out the date and pasting it over another coin I have, I also did it to the picture from Numista and again, the 5 is further away and not the same size.

The red is the cut out of the numbers.

the background coin is one of my other 1965's and the red is the coin this post is about.




These two are of the pic from Numista.






I did this to a few other coins I found online and all the same thing, I even went the extra mile and did it backwards I cut the date out of a regular coin and pasted it on top of the coin in question and still a difference.

Now I don't know if it is just a random die error that if even possible made the 5 look completely different in shape/location or a real variety but I do plan to keep an eye out for more as every coin I've tested this one against did not make a difference. If it really is a new variety I doubt it is a big enough one to be sought after by collectors as it is not a very dramatic difference.

Im sure lots of people will have an opinion on this and the legitimacy of it being a possible variety but I don't plan on getting rid of it anytime soon so I will answer any and all questions about it the best I can in the future if someone comes across one.
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 Posted 11/19/2019  12:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oldmike to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is always nice to post a full obverse and reverse of the coin
Valued Member
Canada
197 Posts
 Posted 11/19/2019  01:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is pictures of the reverse & obverse, the colour difference is only due to my lighting.



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 Posted 11/19/2019  01:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can see now it does indeed look like, as you say, a different 5, I wish you best of luck in getting some recognition. Thank you for sharing this, you put in a great deal of work and energy to prove your discovery, and I can see it now. The Gap is the tell.

What the heck I'll go through my 65's to see if I find any in next few days,! I'll be looking for a larger gap in the 5

Edited by Alan
11/19/2019 02:05 am
Valued Member
Canada
197 Posts
 Posted 11/19/2019  2:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Alan and it was my pleasure for sharing this information, I know it was a long read but I really did think of everything and I posted as much info and facts as I could to help others understand and possibly find one of their own.

Like I said before, my theory as of why it was never discovered before was people were simply too busy looking at the obverse for the large bead that the reverse never got the full attention it needed to show itself, so it sat in the shadow of the Large Bead until recently. A good indicator/marker would most definitely be the gap.

Im really hoping someone else eventually finds another as I would love to be able to compare it with mine so please do post back when you get the chance to check yours out.

Again I would also like to add that this could possibly be only relevant to the Mint Set's and not the circulation coins as the coin this is on has a slightly frosted portrait of the queen and I know they did not frost the circulation coins but since I have only found 1 my theory of only effecting the mint sets wont be determined until another one is found on either a mint set or circulation coin.

If anyone happens to come across one similar or the same please post it so I can finish my research, I feel like I am not done yet as I still have questions (is it only mint sets or both circulation and mint sets) that will only be answered when another (if another) is found that I can compare it too.
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8684 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2019  11:40 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The notching and doubling of the 5 is what catches my attention- any other elements on the reverse show this?
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Canada
197 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2019  2:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From a quick look I did notice these notches in the C-E- letters in Cent but nothing else that jumps out at you as much as the 5.






I will look some more here shortly and post back with some more clearer pictures.

I am also working on a GIF overlay so that you can visually see the difference in the 5 and how much it changes compared to a BU coin so I will post that later today as well.
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