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Mistery 1919 Sovereign Georgev Not Mint

 
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Italy
7 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2020  4:11 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add morganbest to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
hello, I found among the sovereigns of George V of my dad in the collection a 1919 without a mint mark. How to be possible since London in 1919 did not mint coins and only Australia and Canada came out for 1919 but have M, P, S, C as a mint mark. Do you have any information about this 1919 piece without a mint mark? The coin is regular 8gr gold.
Thank you, joe from italy





*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
Edited by morganbest
01/25/2020 4:44 pm
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Canada
1563 Posts
New Member
Italy
7 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2020  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add morganbest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think it is a fake piece I have made several checks and they look good
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Canada
7913 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2020  4:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I had to make a choice, I would say it was counterfeit.
Too many fine details are wrong.
Can you take it somewhere and have it analysed for gold content?
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United States
44786 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2020  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The date side in particular seems to lack detail in the center.



to the CCF!
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United States
2747 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2020  6:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would be very careful with this coin, as it appears fake to me as well. Look at the Reverse details on real ones currently on Ebay, as well as the Monarch. Look at the hair where it comes out of the helmet and the missing pieces of the dragon. I see 11 foot pole marks all over it.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...19+sovereign

Edited by okiecoiner
01/25/2020 7:57 pm
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Canada
1463 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2020  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Even if counterfeit maybe it's still gold? There's counterfeit Canadian 5$ coins made in the 60's in gold I believe.Looks off to me but hopefully is gold
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Australia
1445 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2020  02:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks a little off and fakes of non-existent year and mintmark combinations are known (no 1919P half sovereigns were struck for example but there is a reported example).
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Australia
16449 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2020  05:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In 1919 in Middle East the British Sovereign was used as a trusted currency.
There were a lot of locally made counterfeits circulating.
Some of them were made of a higher gold fineness than the standard Sovereign, so that they could be accepted for trading.

There were no official London Mint sovereigns bearing the date of 1919, without a mint mark.
What you have here is a counterfeit, quite possibly in finer than the 22 ct gold from which London Mint sovereigns were made. It would still have been trusted for trading in the full knowledge that it is a counterfeit,
IF the gold purity could be trusted.

The international image of the Sovereign as a bullion trading coin came into question.
The British Government took the decision to produce huge numbers of sovereigns dated 1925, and deliberately made them as accessible as possible to Middle eastern markets, and managed to eliminate questionable coins from circulation.
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Italy
7 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2020  08:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add morganbest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am asked how a counterfeiter of coins can be so imbecile to reproduce a coin that does not exist, why not put a very common year from 1911 to 1915 instead of going to complicate the job using 916 gold what advantage would it have? But could it not be a weakness of minting so as not to tick, could it come from Melbourne, Perth or from the Canadian mint of Ottawa last year of work and used a very worn coin that has not been replaced and in extreme conditions? Yet the coin is inside the 916 gold numbers and weighs 7.99gr. Thank you
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Australia
13254 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2020  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Jeweller's imitations" of sovereigns are quite common. They were (and still are) made by jewellers in the Middle East in order to sell gold in a form that people are familiar with. "Beirut copies" are so called because a large number of them were made in Lebanon back in the 1960s and, like your coin, often use fictitious date-mintmark combinations (perhaps so the gold-seller can easily tell which coins in their inventory are the replicas). More modern examples, so-called "Dubai replicas", tend to copy genuine coins but are distinguished by the presence of a maker's mark indicating the metal purity, like the one in this thread and this thread.

These jeweller's imitations are much more profitable if the jeweller makes inferior coins but can sell their products for the full sovereign price. More often than not, these "coins" are either lighter in weight than a genuine sovereign, or of lower purity (21k instead of 22k). Many Beirut copies are under-fineness, sometimes as low as .720 fine. In Dubai, the largest gold market in the world today, it is legal to sell imitation gold coins so long as they are made of gold and bear a correct mark of fineness. The ones marked with "22" (the correct fineness for a sovereign) are probably underweight; the ones marked with "21" are probably the correct weight.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Australia
16449 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2020  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My experience with jeweler's replica sovereigns exactly confirms what Sap has said.

Design details appear to be indistinct.

Weight 8.00 grams is close enough to be good enough.
XRF check for gold purity should confirm less than 91.667 % old.
Valued Member
Canada
365 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2020  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vonigohcr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This has been discussed in previous threads... counterfeit sovereigns are readily available, even today, in the Middle East. I was flying through Dubai a few years ago and noted in one of the duty free stores that a Sovereign dated 1917 and bearing no mint mark was available for bullion value... When I asked the sales clerk, it was freely admitted that it wasn't minted in London but since it was legitimate in every aspect (size, fineness, image) with the exception of provenance, it was legal to sell in Dubai as long as it wasn't represented as being minted in London in 1917.

A legitimate 1917 Sovereign will command thousands of pounds in just about any condition... The concern with this practice is a well intentioned but ill informed purchaser may purchase this (or a 1919) as an important date for them (birthday of a parent or grandparent) and then when it is passed on to future generations the provenance does not go with it.

For this reason, be careful with Sovereigns... They are great to collect but risky. Most coin catalogues from the UK (Seaby/Spink or Coincraft) refer to the prevalence of forgeries of these dates.

@Sap & @Sel_69l. Of interest, the 1917 I was looking at did not have a 21ct or 22ct counterstamp. It was the date and the price that had me questioning the provenance...

Edited by vonigohcr
01/27/2020 9:01 pm
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