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3-D Printed Numismatic Fake Coins

 
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16457 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2020  9:12 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I don't yet know yet how to look for telltale signs of their method of manufacture.

That is a major problem for me.

Does anybody else here in the CCF have much of an idea?
Bedrock of the Community
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United States
44837 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2020  9:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any images to look at?
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16457 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2020  12:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As Sergeant Schultz said in Hogan's Heroes said:-
"I know nothing!"
That's not good enough for me.

What got me onto this subject is the fact that turbine blades for jet engines are now manufactured in this way.
It follows that traditional coinage metals can be used for making fake coins, with 3-D printing techniques.
Edited by sel_69l
02/11/2020 12:19 am
Valued Member
United Kingdom
107 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2020  04:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mcstone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello,

I currently work in an area that uses 3D printing in a limited capacity and so I might be able to put your mind at ease with this one.

Most 3D printing that is available to the every day person is entirely polymer based and so would not yield a convincing counterfeit coin.

However, some specialised industrial processes (like mentioned above) can use a CNC driven, very powerful laser to sinter/ weld powdered metal alloys in layers. This leaves a granulated surface and ridges that resemble a topographic map due to the object being built in layers. These layers are currently not very fine and would be unsuitable for recreating the fine details of expensive coins.

In addition not all metals can be printed in this way and the precious metal alloys and copper/bronze numismatic items have historically been made from will not lend themselves to 3D printing, meaning the alloys of printed coins will always catch them out.

For these reasons I don't think we need worry about 3D printed fakes, at least for now, and I would bet that it will always be more cost effective/ easier to create numismatic forgeries using recreated dies and attempting to recreate the original minting process.

Hope this helps,

Matt :)
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16457 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2020  05:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
mcstone:- Thanks for your info, especially so,
because it is from an insider, professionally employed and currently involved with 3-D printing.

I currently have a small library, with detailed information on the manufacture and identification of fake coins. Nevertheless, I have zero information regarding 3-D printing for whatever purpose.
It is mainly by their method of manufacture, that leave distinctive identifiable characteristics, that allow fake coins to be exposed for what they are.

That is why I need to learn.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
16242 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2020  3:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would worry a lot more about fakes from laser or computer cut dies from scanned genuine coins. I'm fairly sure this is how the fakes that have gotten past the TPG's were created.
Gary Schmidt
Edited by Conder101
02/11/2020 3:27 pm
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16457 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2020  5:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I already have some good book information on laser scanning and spark erosion die cutting that depends on the laser 3-D modelling.
This technique has been around for about 10 years or more.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
16242 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2020  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Spark erosion die counterfeits have been around for almost 40 years. The computer controled cutting of dies from scanned images might be approaching 10 years. I don't think we have too much to worry about for some time yet on 3D printed fakes. They won't ring, and the density will be off making them too light unless they make them thicker than they should be, in which case the density or SG will still be off.
Gary Schmidt
Pillar of the Community
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United States
4069 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2020  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting subject and information here. I can only fathom perhaps in another 10 years, all solid objects can be mimic and reproduce just like the original to the detail.

The Mercury Dimes Specialist!
Current project: US Dansco 7070 Album
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United States
1149 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2020  8:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I would worry a lot more about fakes from laser or computer cut dies from scanned genuine coins. I'm fairly sure this is how the fakes that have gotten past the TPG's were created.


This.

As quality reduction lathes get into their hands, digitally enhanced images producing 3D printed galvanos are an increasing risk, too. That's still one generation behind the direct digital milling in our mints, but it's far more sophisticated than what we are currently seeing from the bad guys.
Valued Member
Australia
115 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2020  07:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add serenitystan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have seen Australian pre-decimal silver coins graded MS buy PCGS that where die transfer forgeries..They where that good that PCGS missed it.The owner spotted it,as each coin had the same detracting mark...
Pillar of the Community
Australia
726 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2020  8:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I own a few of those die transfer forgeries in PCGS slabs, have also seen scores of others in PCGS slabs, the fakes are really good and recently I saw a few that were perfect (*) with no detracting marks.
* I could only spot that they were fake as for that particular denomination/year I maintain a reference collection of every die pairing. Nobody can do that for every year/denomination so how many might we not spot for coins we are not experts in or for which it is impossible to have multiple Unc examples of every die pair.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16457 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2020  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With die transfer forgeries the devil is in the detail.
(almost literally)
Bedrock of the Community
United States
16242 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2020  11:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's still one generation behind the direct digital milling in our mints,

I would suspect that some of the counterfeiters already have that tech.
Gary Schmidt
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