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1935-P LMC With A Number Of Interesting Errors

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 427Next Topic  
Valued Member
United States
77 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2020  9:52 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add ShineOn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I took a closer look at decent-condition rd/bn cent I put in a flip as soon as I found it.

This coin has:

Die cracks
Die breaks
Die chips
VDB clash on rev
E-dot-P clash on obv (not as obvious as I'd like due to the toning). I thought I saw part of M in UNUM clashed on the other side of the bust but if it is that hard to find it probably isn't worth noting.

I have a list of all the die markers I could find on both obv and rev if anyone is interested.

Note: there appears to be some sort of glue or varnish in spots on this coin. I may have to give it an acetone bath to get rid of that.

What do you think of this? A find?

I'll post as many pics as I can.



Shows crack from rim through left side of O, plus the VDB clash in your of PLURIBUS

There's a nice crack/break running most of the way down the left wheat stalk. There's also another less overt one on the right wheat stalk that I can load pics of if you want.


N
Here's what the date and field around it looks like

This may be hard to see but there's the dot between E and P clash on this pic as well as the P clash

Again, may be hard to see due to toning, but this shows the E clash plus the dot between E and P.
Edited by ShineOn
04/05/2020 9:56 pm
Valued Member
United States
117 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2020  11:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Vindex to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know why you would use acetone on this coin. You run a risk of it dulling the tone of the entire coin.

Are you referring to a dot (period) between E and Pluribus. It is supposed to be there. It does seem too high though. Nice picture of your die cracks. You have a nice coin.
Valued Member
United States
77 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2020  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ShineOn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know the dot is supposed to be there. I'm saying it's clashed on the obverse along with the E and P.

One of the pic captions has the spell checker automatically replacing "U" and "R" together to be "your."

The VDB clash is on the U and R of PLURIBUS. Did you catch it?

Acetone, according to CoinGuy, does nothing to the metal. According to him, it is the best thing to use to get rid of adhesives and other gunk on coins, because it is safe. Why should I not trust the word of a guy who has been a coin dealer for decades?
Edited by ShineOn
04/05/2020 11:45 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
6272 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2020  12:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't know why you would use acetone on this coin. You run a risk of it dulling the tone of the entire coin.

Sorry this is not correct.
Acetone cannot chemically react with the metal of your coin.
Been there, done that thousands of times though a lot of years with absolutely no ill effects.
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Prosp long and liver.
Valued Member
United States
77 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2020  8:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ShineOn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the backup on acetone, Earle42. There's a lot of misinformation out there about it.

Better to get rid of gunk that doesn't belong there with a safe-for-all-metals solvent than not, especially when what you're removing with Acetone might be something that will damage the coin's luster and finish.


Acetone rinse is NOT the same thing as "cleaning" with corrosive or abrasive chemicals or materials, which does affect the metal and will damage the coin, reducing its value. Acetone will not remove toning or patina, just stuff that it is a solvent for - like 99.999% of common adhesives you'll find on circulated or collected coins. It will also remove any residual skin oils, preventing further skin oil damage. It's the best thing to remove paint, nail polish and most varnishes/shellacs which detract from the coin's value, without affecting the coin itself.

I also submit that for the vast majority of coin alloys, 99% isopropyl is also not damaging. It's what's used in electronics for removing stuff from the various contacts and pads which also are alloys similar coins, and does not abrade metal, dries fast (not quite as fast as acetone, but they are closely related chemically) and leaves no residue other than what it may have dissolved.

In my opinion, it's the best thing to remove any residue left behind by an Acetone bath - which residue also consists of whatever gunk it dissolved. Kind of a tag-team - things acetone can't dissolve might be removable with iso, and iso will clean off what an acetone bath might leave behind if it's allowed to air-dry.


Aaaanyway - any insight on the clash of VDB on the reverse? Is that a value-add for an error coin in roughly XF-45 to AU-50 condition rd/bn?
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 04/06/2020  10:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add merclover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't know why you would use acetone on this coin. You run a risk of it dulling the tone of the entire coin.


This is totally false information. I don't know why this "expert" keeps feeding us erroneous facts.

If you use acetone, it will not dull your coin. I would follow the wash with a rinse of distilled water to avoid possible drying spots.
ša va bien aller
Valued Member
United States
77 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2020  11:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ShineOn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just noticed, looking it over again, that the crack in the left wheat stalk is actually multiple cracks that run through the whole stalk, with some running along the inner edge, cracks to the rim on the left of the stalk, die breaks with raised metal in the field between the stalk and the rim, and a crack running along the stem and out to the rim. So it is a crack/break rim to rim through and along the left wheat stalk.

On the obverse, looking again at the E-dot-P clash, the tops of most of the letters of e pluribus unum appear to be there between the bottom of the bust and the rim. I will have to make an overlay with the die misalignment of the clash overlaid on the obverse..

Here it is, pretty-close to the rotation of the clash



A closeup of the clashed zone for comparison to the overlay image


Edited by ShineOn
04/07/2020 7:45 pm
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United States
2143 Posts
 Posted 04/07/2020  01:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halo1st to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Once more, as a whole, but Note Step 2: ACETONE Warnings. Thanks, Doug.

http://goccf.com/t/57008#447106

Quote: BadThad 12/20/2009

Quote:
THE FIRST STEPS OF CONSERVATION

ALWAYS be aware that sometimes organic residues can be green and mistaken for verdigris. Just because a coin surface contaminate is green doesn't necessarily mean it is verdigris. Coins can be exposed to anything and everything during their existence. That green spot could be a very old piece of gum. For this reason it is recommended to first try what I call the solvent POLARITY LADDER shown below:

Wannabe Geek Note: Polar means a chemical has a negative charge on one end and a positive charge on the other end.

Very Important Note: Only use glass containers with a tight fitting lid for soaking coins.

TABLE 3: The coin solvent Polarity Ladder.

SOLVENT POLARITY
Deionized or Distilled Water Polar
Acetone Less polar than water
Xylene or Hexane Non-polar

STEP 1: WATER

Water will remove many polar surface contaminants. On the Polarity Ladder we start with the absolutely safest coin solvent in the world. As long as soak times are kept reasonable, probably less than 7 days, distilled water will not damage a copper coin. When water soaking, be sure to change out the water at frequent intervals. The more frequent the water changes, the better. Remember, the water is dissolving unwanted contaminants so it becomes contaminated. Each time you change it you're throwing away the bad stuff. Always use distilled or deionized water for soaking. Unpurified water or tap water contains contaminants that may deposit on the coin defeating the conservation attempt.

STEP 2: ACETONE

Acetone chemically, OC(CH3)2 , is a very polar, organic, volatile solvent. High grade acetone can be purchased at most hardware stores. It can also be ordered over the internet in a higher grade like ACS (American Chemical Society) but at a much higher cost. It will remove many organic materials from the coin surface.

Warnings: Do not soak in directly sunlight and store your acetone away from sun. UV light can degrade acetone and produce some chemicals that might be hazardous to your coin. Never allow the acetone to evaporate while the coin is soaking or everything that was dissolved will simply be redeposited on the surface. Use high quality acetone only! DO NOT USE NAIL POLISH REMOVER! Acetone will dissolve plastics and styrofoam so only use a glass container with a tight sealing lid when soaking in acetone. Acetone is flammable; keep open flames away from it. Be sure to read the label and MSDS so you understand the hazards of working with this organic solvent.

A good test to perform before using acetone on a coin is to place some in a glass dish and allow it to evaporate. Inspect the bottom of the dish once it's gone and make sure there's no residue, haziness or sticky film. Any acetone that fails this test is impure and should not be used on a coin.

STEP 3: XYLENE

Xylene is what we call a non-polar solvent and it's completely safe on copper. It's important to use a non-polar solvent because it's the only thing that will dissolve some organic residue. If the surface debris is non-polar, chances are that xylene will be able to dissolve it. Remember "like dissolves like"! Do not over-soak in xylene or you may affect the patina, it can lighten a brown patina with enough time.

That is the process of stepping through various coin safe solvents before attempting conservation. If the green is removed, then it was most likely organic (carbon containing) in nature.
Second opinions are always recommended. Rookies thoughts!
Two sides to every coin. The edge makes three.
Side Note: Sometimes I feel like a nut, sometimes I don't.
Edited by Halo1st
04/07/2020 01:26 am
Valued Member
United States
77 Posts
 Posted 04/07/2020  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ShineOn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So, if you aren't an idiot, Acetone is safe.

An idiot leaves stuff sitting in a dish of acetone until it all evaporates away
An idiot puts their coin bath solvent in the sun
An idiot doesn't dry and rinse their coins after removing them from the acetone bath.

The good test of the purity of your acetone also requires you to make sure there is no film on the glass dish before putting the acetone in there. If there is, the acetone will dissolve it and deposit it as residue when it evaporates, giving you a "false positive"

Valued Member
United States
77 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  11:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ShineOn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Marked up shot of clashed area so you can see where the clashed letters are.

If you look at the not marked up shot you'll see there's actually clashed letters on the bust, not just in the field between the bust and rim.

Edited by ShineOn
04/08/2020 11:33 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
696 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  11:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SamCoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I could be wrong, but even though there are a lot of interesting errors/die damage artifacts on this coin, none of them seem severe enough to add much value.
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