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How To Reduce Fake TPG Slab Counterfeit Forgeries

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 371Next Topic  
Valued Member
Australia
56 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  6:24 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add crok to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
If you think about it every slab by a third party grading company is unique ; the number is on the coin holder.

This means there can be only one genuine authentic slab, so why not register it ?

99% of people have an email account, they are fairly secure and fast and reliable an almost always available.

If the TPG grading companies set up a system where coin owners could register each slab to their unique email acct via an unknown 7 digit pin number.

Let us say you own a $6,000 Morgan silver dollar , you assign that slab number to your own email account.

So now you wish to sell that coin , you simply give the intended buyer your slab number and your seven digit pin code.

They can go to the TPG website and enter the info and see that you most likely own the real slab.

The website would build up a database of known registered slabs and anyone else trying to re-register a recorded slab would be flagged by the system.

No one is going to fake a hundred dollar coin in a slab, the RER = Risk / Effort / Reward is not there. But valuable coins would most likely be registered by their owners anonymously.

The website could tell how many people have tried to register or search for that slab over time. This would discourage fakers and criminals from ' advertising ' which numbered slabs they have " in circulation ".

Owners could register multiple seven digit pin codes for different purposes. Each pin code would have to like 2000 numbers different from any other linked pin number.

This would prevent a faker just entering in a sequential number seeking the correct pin number. This would allow the real slab owner to assign different pin numbers for coins they are keeping and coins they are offering up for sale. Thus owners would never need to give out their real personal pin numbers to strangers.

The TPG website would only function if the slab number and pin number both relate to the registered owners email account. The owners email account would not need to be displayed , only the slab and pin number would give an indication of almost proof of ownership.

For example , let us say your selling a 3,000 $ coin the potential buyer verifies the slab/pin number and can see details of every query the website has had relating to that genuine slab over time . . .

By owners registering their slabbed coins ( or banknotes ) owners could get email alerts when queries are made on the website and if the coin is sold they simply un-register that coin slab.

The website would allow a person to register , report a slab number as suspicious or allow the new owner to challenge ownership if the past seller neglects to de-register that sold slab.

All this would be easily automated and by using a
" I am not a robot " tick check box be prevented from being easily searched by automated computers.

Thus the owner maintains their privacy, has multiple pin numbers for different purposes and knows their is a system more likely to protect them both now and especially in the future when they consider another purchase.

Obviously a slab only being registered/ or re-registered once or twice in the last four years would be less suspicious than a slab that has been tried to be registered twice in the last few months.

This would be easy to set up and not cumbersome for the owner to register their coins. But should go a long way to discourage even organised fakers , since anyone / anywhere could search and validate the history of that slab via their computer or mobile cell phone.

Thanks for reading; please offer comments suggestions below ; Regards!
Edited by crok
04/09/2020 6:28 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
6272 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You have outlined a system that would likely be feasible.

Would people actually not be lazy enough so they would use/update the system?

A lot of people buy slabbed coins on faith alone w/out looking at the actual coin and making a personal evaluation. I just wonder how many of these type of buyers, therefore, would bother to check the official slab number plus history?

I guess if someone could see how many people already use the number checking system online at the TPG sites, it might give some insight?

Another catch would be people might break a coin out of a slab and forget to "report" the coin as being free again. The database would become full of erroneous data.

Then there are people who have no real use for the TPGs. Upon breaking a coin out of a slab, these people would not feel obligated or even know/care about helping TPGs update their records anyway.

While there are a great number of people out there enjoying slabbed coins, I personally feel a huge mistake is made by many of the same people.

It seems a lot of people pursuing this version of the coin hobby incorrectly assume slabs are a necessary and integral part of the coin hobby to everyone in numismatics. There are a lot of collectors who look at the coins in the slabs with the intent of breaking them out. The plastic/label/service is not worth anything to them.

Add another potential problem to the above in that there are still many of us out here who don't like the idea of our personal property being inventoried in someone else's care. If such a list would fall into the wrong hands, the information could help criminal activity choose easier targets.

Come to think of it, I wonder if the TPGs would like such a database themselves? If the history of each slabbed coin existed, then the number of times a coin was re-submitted until it attained a higher grade/$$$ value?

Just some thoughts...
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Prosp long and liver.
Valued Member
Australia
56 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  9:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add crok to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your reply , I feel slabbing coins is essential to the hobby. In the past many people bought over-graded coins from unscrupulous sellers and that affected coin collecting popularity. Personally I live in a tiny TINY major capital city , I highly doubt my city has five coin shops. There is no way for me to learn to grade coins simply because I could look at photograde for years but never get the exposure to real coins nor other collectors to compare opinions and to learn from.

If I cannot have some assurance the coin is real and of a particular grade I simply could not risk buying it , when each coin costs me over 800 $ I could not justify such a financial risk since to me that is a lot of money. Slabbed coins gives amateurs a way to participate in a great hobby. The biggest key to coin values is popularity and slabbed coins means more amateurs can put their money into coins.

I can well understand many collectors especially experienced / seasoned collectors wanting to touch the real coin and to break out a slabbed coin. But I highly doubt many collectors of raw coins would find an MS63 coin in a slabbed MS65 coin holder and break it out, human nature says they would decide to keep the higher valuation intact ; that is just how many people are . . .

Anyone would be free to participate or not in such an online system and they could use a fake email account to enhance their privacy. No where would it require person to give their details just a valid email account since the only thing that links a coin is the pin number against the slab number. Criminals or TPG would gain nothing since there are no other records kept within the system.

Breaking out any coin would remove that slab number from future searches since no one would have a need to search for that broken number, criminals could not re-use that slab number since they would have no way of knowing that slab had been cracked open. It is irrelevant if people feel the need to input or update the system since it is the owner to voluntary keep the records.

But if owners of coins simply registered their coins that would make it unattractive for criminals to mass produce 9 fake holders with the same serial number. Currently how the TPG websites work is to say yes that slab number relates to a TYPE of coin. Thus five people could all be buying fakes after verifying that number is real via the TPG website.

Once that slab number is registered to anyone ever any attempt to reuse that number gets flagged and recorded. Thus counterfeiters would be unlikely to contact the TPG company to try and prove their fakes are real.

Anyways I m a little jealous of you if you have the background and experience to grade your coins along with a local coin community to interact with ;)
Pillar of the Community
United States
6272 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  12:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Personally I live in a tiny TINY major capital city , I highly doubt my city has five coin shops. There is no way for me to learn to grade coins simply because I could look at photograde for years but never get the exposure to real coins nor other collectors to compare opinions and to learn from.

This past summer I relocated. I was in an area where the "local" coin shop (one total) was in the next town 30 miles away. There were no coin shops where I lived.

I now am in a much smaller town where there is no coin shop at all.

I joined CCF in 2011 and immediately started to learn about grading form the people here. I got a book about grading and studied it. I have always frequented the "You vs. PCGS/NGC/ANACS" threads and have tried to figure out the grade. I am pleased to say after doing this now for several years that my guesses (although I rarely share them) are in line with the general consensus of those who regularly post in those threads and are noted on CCF for being pretty well spot on when guessing the grades on labels.

Exposure, as you said, is what it takes. But even the online exposure here has helped me at least be able to make a pretty good evaluation b/c of these threads. Just keep at it


Quote:
Thank you for your reply , I feel slabbing coins is essential to the hobby. In the past many people bought over-graded coins from unscrupulous sellers and that affected coin collecting popularity.

I am sorry to go sideways on the thread here somewhat, but your point here is what I am responding to.

The original TPG marketers (as well as current ones) said/say they are trying to help people not be taken by the unscrupulous. The TPGs say they exist so a person can buy, with confidence, a "professionally graded" coin. Unfortunately the facts are people now pay for slabbed coins that are not what the labels claims.

There is a reason why its a common thing on this forum, which pushes education, to say that people should buy the coin and not the slab.

Review this:
http://goccf.com/t/346174#2967242

As is mentioned, problem examples like these are not hard to find. Start looking!

BTW- the No FG example used in that thread is not just an error on their part of using a wrong picture. If you find the PCGS page where they show various MS graded "No FG" 1982 halves, several of those also are not from the No FG die!

Marketing is what has given people the idea that slabbing companies are essential. If the companies could live up to what they claim, and they would actually use a verifiable and repeatable technique for grading a coin so it always would get the same grade, then the word "essential" could become much more applicable.

And...a scientific system could be employed. The tech has been there to make it as such since the 90s.

More wisdom on this from our departed member BiggFredd:
http://goccf.com/t/130186
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Prosp long and liver.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1701 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  01:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some of what you (crok) propose is like what the PCGS Registry does. When I get a new coin in one of their slabs, I can enter the certification number into my inventory to "claim" that number. When I sell the coin later, I can remove the number from my inventory. A few times, I've entered a number that PCGS rejected because it was owned by someone else. They send an email to the owner for them to release it, and if they don't within a few days, I can send PCGS a photo of the slab to state my claim (I include a post-it note with my PCGS screen name and the date to prove I have it). In theory, they could reject my claim if they determine the slab is fake (hard to do with just this one image).

For this purpose, it works reasonably well. But on a broad scale, it would create a lot of overhead effort and I imagine there are a number of people who would refuse to participate for privacy/security reasons.
Working on: Indian quarter eagles, Chinese pandas, and San Francisco tokens; upgrading my Peace dollar and US Type sets

"Fear is the enemy of will. Will is what makes you take action; fear is what stops you, and makes you weak."
-- Sinestro to (my avatar) Hal Jordan, "Green Lantern" (2011)
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United States
25776 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  2:41 pm  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some collectors/investors do not want anyone to know what they own.
Valued Member
Australia
56 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  4:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add crok to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
there is no record of who owns what , all you do is register an email account ,once that email account is validated.

you simply register a list of a few different pin numbers then assign to pin numbers to your coin slabs.

the only way to check on ownership is someone must put in the pin number and slab number must match.If only those two things match all it does is display the match.

There are no private details to be hacked nor revealed, no one knows your in london or paris or antartica, but the matchup proves you most likely have the only real coin since you gave them that pin number to use.

no you can arrange the sale anonymously via email or other means of selling, privately.

but no one ever gets to see your private info since it was never recorded ever...
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