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How Can I Tell The Difference Between The DD And The Doubled Working Hub?

 
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 Posted 07/07/2020  2:36 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
How can I tell the difference between the DD and the Doubled Working Hub on a coin?

Interesting question. But the ones who determine this is the attributers. Why them and not the collectors? They notice them when they have a lot of the same doubling over and over on the same areas. Years ago, you can figure out that the doubling was on dies had mintmarks on them, but the same doubling was present on several of the examples submitted. The mintmark locations would be in different areas, but the doubled die would be the same. When look at John Wexler's site, you will probably see him figure this out more often. Years ago I noticed on the 1968 cents there were a lot of the same doubling on several different dies. Here are a few examples:
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...ie_state=mds
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...ie_state=mds
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...ie_state=lds
Even Coppercoins noticed this:

Quote:

1968D-1DO-003 CLASS 2 CONECA: unknown | Crawford: unknownWexler: unknown | FS#: unlisted.
A medium spread shows on the motto, and slightly on the date. NOTE: There are a few similar dies that look almost exact. Check mintmark positioning and markers to verify which die you have.

But they didn't realize the issue yet and may still don't know it.
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...ie_state=mds
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...ie_state=mds
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...ie_state=mds
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...ie_state=mds
And on and on. They noted the different mintmark locations, but didn't realize there was the thread behind this. That they are all from the same master die, or from the same working hubs.
I mentioned my doubts to John Wexler and he agreed. What was the clue on these. Finding so many from all three mints with the same doubling. When you see the same doubling over and over and they are easy to find, it should wave red flags.
But it is easy when there are many, but less often are the doubled master hubs. It takes looking at how many are being attributed to realize something is going on. Doubled dies are not to be in large volume.

Quote:

1968-P,D,S 1 WWHO-001 Doubled Working HubDescription: A very slight CW spread shows on the LIBE of LIBERTY. A spread towards the rim shows on IGWT.Die Markers: The obverse and reverse die markers will vary with each affected working die.Submitted By: Various individuals.Cross References: None knownComments: Numerous working dies for all three Mints were created with this doubled working hub including S-Mint proof dies.


Here is another good read about this subject from Wexler's site. You can follow the link and read it.
http://doubleddie.com/58222.html
A long read but contains a lot of information. So I hope this answers your question CoinHunter17.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 07/07/2020  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHunter17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, this is incredible. Who knew I was going to be the headline for coop's latest informational post? This is yet another great post. Thanks a bunch coop.
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 Posted 07/07/2020  5:17 pm  Show Profile   Check SilverCents's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SilverCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting topic, and extremely informative. Thank you Coop for answering CH17's question. Makes a lot of sense.
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 Posted 07/07/2020  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@coop, Excellent and informative discussion, as usual. Thank you!
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 Posted 07/08/2020  12:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cents:
1950 (P, D, S) 1 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A close spread towards the center shows on the E in WE.
1960 (P,D)1 WWHO-001 Small Date Doubled Working Hub
Description: A spread towards the rim shows on the lower part of the letters of IGWT.
1961 (P,D) 1 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A spread towards the center shows on the letters of LIBERTY.
1961 (P,D) 1 WWHO-002 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A spread towards the center shows on the letters of IGWT decreasing in spread from left to right.
1961 (P,D) 1 WWHO-003 Doubled Working Hub
Description: Strong extra thickness shows on the date, LIBERTY, and IGWT.

1962 1 Pr WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A spread towards the rim shows on the date.
1962 (P,D) 1 Pr WWHO-002 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A spread towards the rim shows on the date and TRUST.
1962 (P,D) 1 Pr WWHO-003 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A CW spread from a pivot at about 9:00 shows on the date and TRUST.
1962 (P,D) 1 WWHO-004 Doubled Working Hub
Description: Doubling shows on the inside of the 2 in the date..

1968-(P,D,S) 1 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A very slight CW spread shows on the LIBE of LIBERTY. A spread towards the rim shows on IGWT.
1972 (P,D,S) 1 WDDO-001 "Best Of" Variety
Description: An extremely strong Class I CW spread shows on the letters of LIBERTY, IGWT, the front of the bust, and the date.
1983 1 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: Doubling shows on the upper LI in LIBERTY.
1989 1 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A spread towards the center shows on the date, the bottom of the front of the bust, the hair details at the top of the head, and slightly on IGWT.
2017-P 1 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: Moderate extra thickness shows on the letters of LIBERTY with the upper left of the Y considerably thicker than the upper right.
2017-P 1 WWHO-002 Doubled Working Hub
Description: Moderate extra thickness shows on the letters of LIBERTY with the upper left of the Y considerably thicker than the upper right. This aspect is stronger on WHO-002 than it is on WWHO-001.

2019 1 WMDO-001 Doubled Master Die
Description: Significant extra thickness shows on the 9 in the date.

Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 07/08/2020  01:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sheldius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for a great post Coop. At least I only have to deal with one in the wheat cents.
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 Posted 07/08/2020  02:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nickels:
1925-P,D,S 5 WMDO-001 Doubled Master Die
Description: Doubling shows on the left side of the ribbon and on the left side of the lower braid.
1947-DMO WDMO-001-P-D-S Distorted Hub Doubling
Description: Class II: A spread toward the center shows on IN GOD WE TRUST.

1982-S WWHR-001 Proof Working hub doubling reverse
Description: Class II, Distorted Hub Doubling

Dimes:
1946-P,D,S 10 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A spread towards the center shows on the date, the designer's initials, and slightly on IGWT.
1955 10 WMDO-001 Master Die Doubling
Description: A CCW spread from a pivot at about 3:00 shows on LIBERTY, IGWT, and the lips.
1968 10 WMDO-001 Master Die Doubling
Description: A spread towards the center shows on the LIB of LIBERTY and IGWT.
Quarters:
1930 25 WMDR-001 Master Die Doubling
Description: A close Class II spread towards the center shows on some of the letters of QUARTER DOLLAR. The three stars under the eagle show tripled left points.
1944 25 (P,D,S) WMDO-001 Master Die Doubling
Description: A strong spread to the north shows on the lower ear, the underside of the nose, and the E in WE.
1949 (P,D,S) 25 WMDO-001 Master Die Doubling
Description: A spread towards the center shows on IN, the TR in TRUST, and the BER in LIBERTY.
1951,2,3,4 (P,D,S) 25 WMHO-001 Master Hub Doubling
Description: A moderate CW spread from a pivot at about 3:00 shows on IGWT.
Comments: Because the master hub is designed to be used over a period of several years, this one was used during the period from 1951 through 1954. Consequently all Washington quarters during that period of time will show this doubling. Differences in the appearance of the doubling will be due to wear on the working hubs, wear on the working dies, and wear on the coins themselves.


1968,9,70,1,2,3,7 (P,D,S) 25 WMHR-001 Master Hub Doubling
Description: A spread towards the center shows on QUARTER DOLLAR and the lower wreath with all doubling decreasing in spread from left to right.
Comments: Because this was a master hub it was intended to be used over a period of several years. Working dies with the exact same doubling are known to exist for the years 1968 through 1974 from all three Mints including proof coins. Differences in the appearance of the doubling will result from master hub wear, master die wear, working hub wear, working die wear, as well as coin wear. A second similar doubled master hub exists for this time period with the main difference being the leave directly to the left of the arrowheads. On the second doubled master hub that leave is rounded at the top.


1982 (P,D,S) 25 WMDO-001 Master Die Doubling
Description: A spread towards the center along with significant extra thickness shows on IGWT and slightly on the date.

Half Dollars:
1948 (P,D) 50 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A close spread SE shows on the date while a close spread towards the center shows on IGWT and LIBERTY.
1960 50 Pr WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: A close spread towards the center shows on LIBERTY.
1964 50 Pr WMDO-001 Doubled Master Die
1964 50 WMDO-002 Doubled Master Die
1964 50 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
1964 50 WWHO-002 Doubled Working Hub
1964 50 WWHO-003 Doubled Working Hub

Since WMDO-001 is only on P-Mint proof coins, there are no D-Mint examples of WMDO-001 and the D-Mint listings begin with WMDO-002.
1964-D 50 WMDO-002 Doubled Master Die
1964-D 50 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
1964-D 50 WWHO-002 Doubled Working Hub

1965 50 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
1965 50 WWHR-001 Doubled Working Hub

1966 50 WWHO-001 Doubled Working Hub
Description: Strong doubling shows on the profile including the neck, chin, lips, nostril, eye, and the locks of hair at the top of the head near the B in LIBERTY. Doubling also shows on the lower back of the ear and the designer's initials. A close spread shows on IGWT.
Comments: While CONECA has noted the possibility of a doubled working hub for the numerous 1966 50 doubled profile varieties, they still list all of these as unique working dies.


1966 50 WWHO-002 Doubled Working Hub
Description: Strong doubling shows on back of the neck and head as well as on the lower profile including the neck, chin, and lips. Doubling also shows on the back of the ear, the hair details to the right of the upper ear, and the designer's initials. A close spread shows on IGWT.
Comments: The quickest way to spot the difference between WWHO-001 and WWHO-002 is the hair details just to the right of the upper ear. On WWHO-001 these hair details show barely any doubling, but on WWHO-002 the doubling of these hair details is strong.


1966 50 WWHO-003 Doubled Working Hub
Description: Very close tripling spread towards the center shows on the date, IGWT, and the Y of LIBERTY.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
07/08/2020 4:33 pm
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 Posted 07/08/2020  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eyez to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ Coop always up and beyond in info love it thx coop.
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 Posted 07/08/2020  7:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After 9/10s done, the thought came to me: Why not put a link with the sites for each listing. But I've save the material, and someday may add that to this thread. (That's what happens when you have a brain that figures out how to make something more work. LOL
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
07/08/2020 7:22 pm
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 Posted 07/10/2020  12:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eyez to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@coop the only prob with that is mine will overthink lol.
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