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What Has Been Your Worst Grade Experience With A Third Party Grading Company?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
7335 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2021  11:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They would need a new "map" for every obv and rev die used, and possibly die states of each die as well to allow for die cracks, chips, cuds, and clash marks so as to not confuse these things with "damage".

That also makes sense. This would have been incredibly hard back then. I don't see much of a problem for tech nowadays though.


Quote:
The ultimate problem is getting people to agree on your training set. Even today if you show three coins to three experts, you will get 5-10 grades.

I think you are correct on this. I think this is why Mintstate.com decided to go with slabbed pieces so people who stick to wanting a human hand in it would be satisfied.

Our entire world that surrounds us is made of engineered and QC-passed parts measuring down into the thousandths (and beyond) of tolerances being scanned and verified by machine. I would like to see coins as scientifically handled. I think with the right PR, our world around us, it seems, is always after the next greatest scientific breakthrough and tech toy, so I would think a non-human opinion basis would be welcomed...except there are already a lot of people out there with a lot invested in the label on their slab who would likely lose a lot of money if the coin itself were scientifically and verifiably graded.

I also am of the opinion (nothing to back it up except thinking like a business) that grading companies would not like the systems anyway. They would likely lose a lot of money with people gambling and playing the re-slabbing game for profit. I admit I wonder if this loss of the "gamble aspect" was not also some of the reason the tech was shut down after a short time. Shareholders (if they had them?) would not have appreciate a drop in business. The system would have made a large, but finite and growing smaller, need for grading company services. There are only so many, for example, 1916-D Mercury dimes to be graded.

I see the system (like you described) not only bringing the coin hobby up to a much needed verifiable standard, but consistency. And since an AI system would be based upon a vast sea of human opinion, it might appease those wishing this as well.

BTW - Mintstate.com also has an AI coin detector. Meaning a system could be made to auto-scan, auto-ID, and then auto grade any coin as well.



Quote:
The ultimate problem is getting people to agree on your training set. Even today if you show three coins to three experts, you will get 5-10 grades.


This is exactly why I would love to see verifiable standards. The above is what I personally see as a "gray area" since thousands of dollars can ride on one simple difference in number printed on a label.

It reminds me of when the Beanie Baby market crashed b/c people faced the reality they were paying hard earned cash for plastic beads in a piece of cloth. The Beanie hobby had a totally artificial market-driven "value" assigned to the Beanie Babies. While our coins are different in that some already are known as rare, competition for registry sets etc. keeps driving up prices on the same coin+label+plastic. Its not just about the coin.

The day when a slabbed coin could be broken out, resubmitted, and get the same exact grade every time is when the COIN itself is factually graded on its OWN merits. No more valuable plastic...just coins.
The slabbed Half dollar No FG farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Pillar of the Community
United States
1587 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2021  12:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jmkendall to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A couple of problems with Ai graded systems.

Market grading. Market grading would be gone. Completely. No more days of days of "Daddy big bucks" collector sending in his/her 1945-P Merc and getting an FSB out of a coin of questionable bands. No more downgrading coins to ridiculas grades in order to keep the census low in order to favor a big customer. I've had PCGS grade three of my coins as an AU58; that were later graded at the gem or above level by another TPG. All three were from single digit census'.

Oth how do you factor in "eye" appeal? Some people love toning. Some people love color, but not necessarilly toning in general. How about a "blast white fresh from the mint presses" finish that is generally worth a point all by itself?

I think, as an Engineer, it would not be as hard as some people think. Sure the learning curve would be a bit harsh and cause problems at first, but it is very doable.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
770 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2021  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For training a computer AI system it doesn't matter if many coins get graded differently by different graders and get different grades by the same grader on different days. That is because the database will be built up when a few hundred or a few thousand coins graded by humans are added to the database. The AI will have learnt what each grade (including + grades) will look like on average and the average will be very exact (the system can even be trained to learn what eye appeal and attractive toning is). Then the system can point out those coins that are over or under graded by the humans.
That takes care of the grading of 95% of coins submitted, the remaining 5% are the coins with very few submitted (rarities, many world coins) or problematic coins (hammered coins, coins with unusual features).
Then the problem in future will be that all coins graded pre AI will be suspect for grades, I'm sure the TPGs would love to encourage the owners to resubmit the coins (for a fee ) for an accurate grade. They might even nudge the issue by making pre AI graded coins ineligible for set registries.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7335 Posts
 Posted 07/02/2021  5:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Oth how do you factor in "eye" appeal? Some people love toning. Some people love color, but not necessarilly toning in general. How about a "blast white fresh from the mint presses" finish that is generally worth a point all by itself?


Eye appeal is already in the eye of the human beholder. Look at the large number of coins with high grades that have little eye appeal to everyone.

As to present slabs then "needing" to be re-slabbed...you bet this is exactly what the companies would promote if they would present the AI system.

In fact one of the points they used to push for computer grading in the 90s was that "to err is human."

I am not being negative as much as just stating opinion. I have a feeling back when the computers were being used with a scientific grid system that the companies realized they were shooting themselves in the foot. Making a scientific standard would kill the profitable resubmission gambling game that brings in huge profits.

A business out to make a profit would recognize this and then default to a system to make more profits throughout the years. Eventually they knew it would catch up with them, but the profits already made have kept the companies going strong for decades now.

Computerphobia was gone decades ago. But there are only so many grades to be assigned if a coin is ACTUALLY graded. Its in the best BUSINESS interest of the companies to keep science out of the picture.
The slabbed Half dollar No FG farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Valued Member
Canada
154 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2021  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DouglasFir to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a truly great discussion,as a relatively new collector, never having bought a slabbed coin, I'm learning a lot, and really enjoying myself.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7335 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2021  11:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Glad you came here first before just jumping onto the slab bandwagon. I hope you take a look at the PDF in my signature for a real eye opener as to the problem these companies have with rookie coin collector level attributions of half dollars.

Everything is linked to the PCGS webpage and uses their own data. There is a lot of incompetence there that has literally cost some collectors thousands who have a blind faith in who they consider to be "THE" experts.

These companies have a great wealth of reference information they post for the hobby. They also have a great track record on identifying fakes (also no magic there though - not hard to do if someone takes the time to learn). As former PCGS president Ron Guth has said, "...anyone can learn to grade... ." So while these companies are a convenience for those who (for any reason including legitimate ones) do not take the time to learn fakes or what better grades actually look like, these companies can serve that purpose for them.

But blind faith in them has cost too many people way too much money. Start examining slabs for yourself to see the problems. Tis is how I started out. A former grader told me to start looking at MS70 graded ASEs b/c its not hard to find them that are obviously not perfect coins. It took me very few to find one with an obvious rim ding! From there on I kept looking and, as this forum says, would buy the coin and not the slab.



The slabbed Half dollar No FG farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
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