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1918 Canada 5 Cent. Variety Or Fake

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 489Next Topic  
Valued Member
Canada
62 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2020  4:34 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add mindfreak to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I scanned this coin that I just received, and was about to list it on Ebay. The 8 looks a little funny.
Any opinions?
Thanks

Pillar of the Community
United States
727 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2020  4:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chipjones to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like the 8 took a hit. All the hairline scratches tell me that is been cleaned.
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Canada
8090 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2020  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 8 does appear to be a little wispy.
Hopefully an expert will be along shortly.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1688 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2020  6:32 pm  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see red flags. 8, rev. crown, pearls on robe, etc etc but HARSH cleaning may account some of these. Weight?
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Canada
663 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2020  6:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numis-Northerner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The fact that the crown jewels are fully struck but the ribbon isn't is concerning.
Pillar of the Community
United States
6576 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2020  10:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you have any experience with a graphics program, get a picture of an authenticated one from online, crop it, and do a transparency overlay onto the pic of yours. This method is very, very good b/c fake coin devices do not line up with the originals.

- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Prosp long and liver.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1064 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2020  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add purelywasted to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
it looks a bit funny, not sure why someone would go to the trouble of faking a coin in that condition. Maybe $10? on a good day.
Pillar of the Community
United States
6576 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2020  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is an overlay with one from NGC:
I overlaid them such that the 5 sized correctly and lined up.

Note in the 1st closeup the right side leaves are lined up and the left are not. Lettering varies.

Note in the 2nd closeup most everything is not lining up and devices are different sizes. I also noted small font differences while working with these files. one of the most obvious is the holes in the 8s are different shapes.







To do this I focused on making the 5s the exact same size and overlayed them. Although your coin's 5 has a slightly thicker "top" to it.
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Prosp long and liver.
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United States
3134 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2020  06:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Overlays only work if they are taken at the exact same magnification, the exact same angle, the exact same lighting and the exact same aperture setting/focus. And also that the coins have almost exact same strike crispness and Die Deterioration. Someone else on this site tries to do overlays and has the same minor problem
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
17271 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2020  07:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OP's coin looks a bit like a pressure die cast fake.
Surface field texture in the pictures indicate this, as well as some indistinctness in the legends. Under high magnification, look for machine removal of a injection casting sprue on the edge of the coin.

That opinion cannot be conclusive however, unless further investigation is carried out:
Exact weight,
Exact diameter,
Comparative ring tone with another Cents of the same period,
XRF analysis.
I notice some green tinging in the toning, which could indicate a lot of copper in the alloy, but not necessarily so, silver coins can acquire a green tinging if stored with copper coins in the right aggressive environment.
Pillar of the Community
United States
6576 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2020  4:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Overlays only work if they are taken at the exact same magnification, the exact same angle, the exact same lighting and the exact same aperture setting/focus. And also that the coins have almost exact same strike crispness and Die Deterioration.

Thanks you for your comments. What you say was taken into consideration.

I thought the very similar degree of device details on each coin pic I used, and each picture seems to have been taken perpendicular to the coins. After cropping each picture to the rims of the coin in all four directions, the NGC pic was only 20 pixels off the size of the OPs pic. I resized it accordingly.

Rotational orientation was corrected using a transparency overlay and also straight line markers to compare angles on the pictures. I ended up with rotational variance of .02 in the NGC pic...which I corrected.

I then tried to fine tune by focusing on a specific device and zooming in to high magnification to resize, using transparency option to overlay, the specific device. This procedure was done on multiple devices starting from the top each time.

Upon doing this multiple times using the 8, the first 1 in the date, the first letter A in Canada, the last letter A in Canada, and finally the number 5, the results were always some great alignment with some devices while others were off.

The shape of the loop of the 9 on the NGC coin is larger and more oblong side to side. The 1s in the date are wider on the OPs coin. The top of the 5 in the OPs coin is a little more thick. The holes in the 8 are of different size and shape (but not as much as the 9 and could be just problems with the pic).

Does this PROVE the coin is a fake? No - science demands direct observation of data to be called science. Is there a possibility I missed something? Yes...absolutely.

From experience and what I have seen here, I personally would want to see this in hand with a known real coin before I bought it. On this forum can be found threads I posted some years ago now where I deliberately bought fakes and did similar posts on them while sharing the results.

- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Prosp long and liver.
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