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Supply And Demand In The Canadian Coin Market

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 691Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community

United States
964 Posts
 Posted 08/07/2020  6:04 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
It never ceases to amaze me at how thin the actual demand is for very rare Canadian coins. Even miniscule supply has little to do with the prices for these coins.

As an example, I just sat through today's online Heritage Auction session. An 1858 reeded specimen ten cent coin in SP-64 sold for $2,200US. The mintage of this coin is about a dozen pieces, or less.

The auction also had quite a few pieces of French NCLT proof piedforts from the 1970's and 1980's. These pieces had mintages from 3 to 17 pieces. Granted, they were struck in platinum, but I think all were less than a half ounce troy. They all sold at two to five times the sale price of the Canadian 1858 ten cent piece.

I understand it. The French coin demand is many multiples higher than the Canadian coin demand. Conversely, the serious demand for a rare Canadian piece is less than ten collectors. That said, it just amazes me that modern NCLT sells for multiples of the price of a historic coin from Canada's first decimal issue.
Edited by bosox
08/07/2020 6:05 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
964 Posts
 Posted 08/07/2020  6:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just to emphasize the thin Canadian demand, this same 1858 ten cent piece sold for $2,585US in the 2015 Heritage Beckman sale with six bidders and $1,560 in the Heritage 2019 Long Beach sale with seven bidders. I think it shows that when placing a very rare Canadian coin in a public auction, it really is a crap shoot whether any serious bidders for it show up. That is why so many of them only change hands by private treaty.
Valued Member
Canada
350 Posts
 Posted 08/08/2020  08:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why is this?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4597 Posts
 Posted 08/08/2020  09:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No or little demand, sometimes one or two examples are bad for markets because they rarely trades or you don't see an example for decades. Take the 1976 uniface set that was in the same Heritage sale, before this lot a few Brazilian gold coins were selling in 6 figures, then this 1976 RCNP set it sold for 28,000 plus juice, exchange, HST, ect. like close to 50K Canadian, I can see only one way to justify this bid, but there was a few bidders. This coin although rare like a lot of NFLD coins has small demand, thus very reasonable prices
Pillar of the Community
Canada
968 Posts
 Posted 08/08/2020  11:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe it is called 'not being educated by those who know'.
Most coin clubs offer no or very little education. That, IMO, is where most of the problem lies. It is a interesting story. But, Have no time today to explain and reflect on experiences. will do so after the weekend. It will floor you.
in the meantime, maybe others think about what I mentioned.
Pillar of the Community
United States
964 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2020  3:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think many clubs do try to educate. Most do so in the general, more popular areas of collecting, not in specialty areas such as varieties, special strikes, and errors.

47, I am not sure if you meant it that way, but your post came across as collectors "who know" have some sort of obligation to educate those who do not. Although many do chose to educate others, I actually think the converse is true. If you are going to collect and spend any significant (whatever amount that may be for you) money in any area of collecting, then the obligation is on you to seek out information and learn about that area. I find that seeking out of information to be a very enjoyable aspect of the hobby. We all know people who spend hundreds, or even thousands, of dollars collecting coins they know very little about, but will not spend a small fraction of that on a book or two to learn about them.

I also see many collectors asking questions on chatrooms where the answers are readily available in the literature. When I see that, I usually think it is either a true beginner, or somebody who has not expended any effort, or cash, to find the appropriate literature and do their homework. Granted there are subject area gaps in the literature. These are slowly being filled by researchers and collectors. That said, a tremendous amount of literature is easily available. Most of it is not very expensive. For the modest cost of an RCNA membership, you can access Journals and Bulletins back to 1950. Quite a bit of current and out of print numismatic literature pops up regularly on bookseller sites like Abebooks. The Newman Numismatic Portal is increasing the online availability of literature every day.

Like the mantra says, "buy the book before buying the coin."
Edited by bosox
08/10/2020 4:37 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1578 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2020  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with what you are saying Rob, it applies to most things in life literature on a topic is gold coins, fishing, hunting. I hunted Elk for 5 years and never got I could see them but I could never get close enough for the shot I wanted.

So I purchased a book on the Elks habitat and how they lived and what they would be eating at hunting season. I got my Elk the next season same as Steelhead fishing buy the literature and learn
Pillar of the Community
Canada
968 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2020  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rob, and others,
I have your books and am a member of the RCNA and, and, and.
I am also a member of 2 coin clubs here on Vancouver Island.
When I joined one club many years ago, the club was a disaster, with established members always getting their way! And very few if any younger members.
And if they did not like a suggestion, it was a no go for any new ideas. unless it was their Idea.
Everyone complained about no younger member wanting to join.
well, how will young collectors know about the clubs existance. Finally after a lot of heated discussions, a web site was established. but, it was not advertised. Security was used as an excuse.
Finally after about a year, I had enough and spoke up. Called a spade a spade.and suggested that most of the current members would be better off joining a social club, as the monthly auction which simply was a sale at 75%+ of trends min bids, was the only thing most were interested in.
I started to give simple presentations which included blow ups of coins on a projector. for example, I did detailed images of the 1947 dollar varieties and 1891 1 cent varieties. All clearly displayed and talked about, the differences explained. More Time for these presentations, of which I did many, was always an issue, as the auction was the most important event of the day and hence, more important.
In a subsequent meeting I made up and handed out questionnaires with pictures and multiple answers, the right answer to be marked. Question for example was: which type of the 1947 dollars is this coin? each had at least 4 answers where one was to be marked. More than half of the members had it wrong.
IMO, a coin club is there so members can gain better and more knowledge about numismatic subjects, whatever it may be. There were times when members were simply bored and sitting around.
I can honestly say that I learned a whole bunch more here and the old coppercoin forum, than at a coin club.
One major problem is getting young collectors interested. But that is a whole other subject, perhaps for a rainy day.
Valued Member
Canada
350 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2020  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Speaking as a somewhat educated beginner (actually a returnee - I used to collect when I was a kid back in the 1870s) I can say that asking dumb questions and for judgment calls on this site has been incredibly valuable. Even when it was questions where I was 60% certain that I already knew the answer....the discussions have been very illuminating.

I've read a few books and gleamed as much info as I can from various online resources. But there's no substitute for discussion. [I'm a teacher myself and can tell you that all the literature supports this}. I'm sure its annoying to encounter questions on topics that have been hashed over before by others. But...well...surely education is one of the great benefits of this site, no?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4597 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2020  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Most local clubs has a presentation on some coin topic, although if the topic is not in your collecting interest could get very boring. You do get a chance to meet like minded coin guys or gals in your interest and share info and thoughts. As for young collectors the bigger GTA shows has the last few years had kid's table and auctions which are getting better attended, have to start somewhere. Rare is rare, but the marketplace always speak, like the set that I mentionedI thought 15G was a high price but obviously I was wrong, there is no Charleton to look up.
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