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Help To ID German States (Pfalz Or Related) 1639 Silver Minor

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 639Next Topic  
Valued Member
Poland
160 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2020  12:51 pm Show Profile   Check norantyki's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add norantyki to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi all, its not often that I'm stumped, but I do have a small box of things to sort later that I am currently working through. This is one of them - the arms are of Pfalz, similar to those adopted by Karl Theodor some time later, as per below:

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=l...167&lot=1423

This uniface piece (maybe a 1/2Kr or Schusselpfennig) is dated 1639, but doesn't match anything that I can find in Krause, or with some internet searching. Diameter is 1.4cm, so its a small one ;)

Many thanks in advance for any help!

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United States
17399 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2020  8:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a tough one. Those tripartite arms look very similar to Pfalz-Neuburg, but I'm not seeing an exact match in my Krause. I see that they issued multiple uniface Half Kreuzers in the 17th Century.

Hopefully someone else here can help more than that though.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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United States
1087 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2020  11:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My Krause has black circles for a lot of German State minors- same for about everyone else?
I have other books on German coinage of that era, but no exact matches.
Edited by Albert
09/17/2020 11:38 pm
Valued Member
Poland
160 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2020  02:18 am  Show Profile   Check norantyki's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add norantyki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for that, guys. I also have other references that I checked, but as per both of your searches, nothing :/ This being said, there are a lot of unlisted types / varieties of 16th-19th German States coinage, so I suppose I can assume that this is one of them. Again, thanks for the help, glad to see that I wasn't missing somthing!
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Canada
3717 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2020  02:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Krause has a lot of gaps for German states minor coins. That is one of my pet peeves. The thalers and gold are lavishly illustrated, while the coins more likely to be found are missing/ not illustated.
Valued Member
Poland
160 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2020  03:55 am  Show Profile   Check norantyki's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add norantyki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@oriole, I think this might in part be a reflection of the focus of most German collectors. I have gone through about 8 specialized references of mine, printed from between 1848-2010, and all have the same weight placed on Thalers / 2/3 Thalers / 1/2 Thalers. Anything below this is sort of treated as a nuisance, and not worthy of real study. I think that traditionally, German collectors in particular, but continental European collectors more generally have been drawn to the larger denomination coins, as these larger format pieces presented a larger and more exploited canvas for numismatic artistry. I think that this legacy actually makes the smaller denoms of the German states a bit more interesting / exciting, as they aren't very well trodden paths :)
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United States
1087 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2020  04:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My guess is an unlisted type Pfalz-Simmern.
I asked for help from friends on this one.
Hopefully they may reply with better info.
They may have more or better resources.
I did take the liberty to crisp up the photo and sent it to them.

Edited by Albert
09/18/2020 05:18 am
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 Posted 09/18/2020  09:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think @albert is headed in the right direction. Not sure if this can help: http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Hou...nate-Simmern
I do not see a direct match with the coat of arms on the coin, but it is difficult to determine what is in the wedge at 6:00 (it does not look like the globus cruciger, but maybe the engraver was challenged by the small space?).

Edit: the C L could possibly be Charles Louis, who was the Elector of Palatine-Simmern 1649-1680. Perhaps in 1639 he was Count of Palatine-Simmern, but not yet an Elector? Or perhaps the date is 1659?
The history fits, even if I cannot come up with a numismatic reference. Maybe someone can check catalogs for a 1659 uniface of Charles Louis, Elector of Palatinate-Simmern?

Edited by tdziemia
09/18/2020 09:14 am
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United States
17399 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2020  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In addition to the C L initials, I believe that there is a mintmaker's mark in between them. It looks vaguely like a letter V, but I suspect is rather a flower of some sort. The other adornments around the inner circle all look like embellishments, but maybe not.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

Pillar of the Community
Canada
3717 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2020  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@norantyki, I am sure that you are right about the German collector interest. However, it means there is opportunity to get scarce coins from obscure places for very little-provided that you are prepared to do the upfront identification work.
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United States
1087 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2020  04:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I neglected to mention that I did indeed find the OP coin on one of the auction websites.
However, it was in a mixed lot having a vague description, so that is why I said "My guess is Pfalz-Simmern" because the listing was not precisely worded.
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