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Errors That Arent Documented Varieties Are Not Always Damaged Coins.

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 Posted 10/19/2020  01:07 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Jrvaults to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
The error varieties that the grading companies have made a list of are just the most common errors that they see so often that they have made note of them. Actual errors are unique and rare. Ones that you probably wont see everyday and are not automatically damage. I must say the nay saying on this site is very discouraging to anyone that has peeked enough interest in what they have to take the time to post on a forum about it. I trust you will not delete this post just because you do not agree with what I am saying as it is a legit post.
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 Posted 10/19/2020  01:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add merclover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with you when you say "Actual errors are unique and rare." This is (mostly) a true statement. BUT, not every coin is an error coin, and not every error coin is necessarily valuable, or in many cases "rare".

AND a lot of damaged coins are mistaken for true errors, especially by untrained eyes. We are not all experts here, but we see a great deal of coins and are able to distinguish between damaged coins and true error coins most of the time.

Many here are familiar with the minting process and we try to pass on our opinions when presented with out-of-the-ordinary coins. We aren't paid here but we try to help by passing on our knowledge. Are we always right? Absolutely not, but we are here 24/7 to assist those in need.

Not every error coin is unique. In the minting process, many "errors" are repeated over and over until the mistake is discovered. Sometimes mistakes escape the mint, but many are destroyed in the process. Sure, perhaps some errors are produced in small numbers, but others might be produced by the thousands. And there are some people who try to deceive us by trying to produce man-made errors, but usually we can distinguish what's real and what's not.

We are here to try to educate and help as much as possible. We are all family here.


ša va bien aller
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 Posted 10/19/2020  01:50 am  Show Profile   Check norantyki's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add norantyki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi @Jrvaults! You are correct that the large companies only post detailed analysis of major and more frequently encountered types of error. This being said, the vast majority of 'errors' that are pointed out by experienced members here ARE just PMD.

Error collecting is about understanding the minting process in minute detail (this can vary from country to country, period to period, and even issue to issue). Once you have that down, it is simply a matter of going step by step and asking yourself if if could have happened at that point. If the answer is no from start to finish, then it is certainly not an error.

It is worth bearing in mind that major errors are not common occurrences (which is why they are collectible / sometimes valuable), and unfortunately, in a 'check your change' era where the media frequently sensationalizes change finds while simultaneously offering up misinformation / lack of clarity, people with little knowledge of the minting process come charging onto this forum to share their finds. Sometimes, they have something, and the fine members here let them know that they think it might be something. More often than not though, it is a minor variety / PMD, and it is then up to the person in question to either take this information constructively, or go on in ignorance (of benefit to no one).

I am sorry if you find this process disheartening, but frankly, that has little bearing on the truth, which is what we seek to get at on this forum. The real joy should be in learning and growing as a numismatist, and then being able to leverage that knowledge / experience to build a collection of truly interesting material, rather than a heap of scrap metal. Remember, we don't bite, and like everyone, we can sometimes be wrong, but the most important thing is that we are all in this together, and we all just want to see and discuss some cool coins!
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 Posted 10/19/2020  02:42 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well said.
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 Posted 10/19/2020  05:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well said times two.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
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 Posted 10/19/2020  05:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jrvaults to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i thank you for your patience on the matter.
our justice system used to be innocent until proven guilty. someone used to have to be guilty beyond REASONABLE DOUBT (i exclaimed). now if you are arrested for a crime you didnt commit you must prove you are innocent.
people that post on your forum thinking they may have found something of value should not be automatically dismissed as not the real thing. the ones responding to said posts should not find pleasure in telling them what they have is JUST damage or ONLY machine doubled because to people with far less expertise dont understand how something doubled by a machine during the minting process that visibly shows letters behind letters or numbers behind numbers isn't considered an error.
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 Posted 10/19/2020  05:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jrvaults to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
information and educating on the matter is most important and for that we thank you all for your time.
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 Posted 10/19/2020  07:43 am  Show Profile   Check silverwolf's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add silverwolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
information and educating on the matter is most important


I agree, the problem being a lot of people find this site, because they have searched ebay, or etsy, or watched some videos on you tube, before they know anything about how coins are minted. Most people have already made their mind up, before they even get here, that they have something unique and valuable,

So when they hear it isn't valuable or rare, they either go away, or go to another coin forum, and usually get the same answer.. When what they should be doing is , some basic research, the internet is a canyon of information,

So when a new collector, comes hear for information, it is all here for them to learn from, whether they choose to learn, is completely up to them,,Most of us here, are happy to impart some of our gained knowledge to new collector's, as long as they are willing to listen..

Some will listen, and learn, and go on to help others. Other's won't.. My opinion only..
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 Posted 10/19/2020  08:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First, well said by all others that responded!


Quote:
the ones responding to said posts should not find pleasure in telling them what they have is JUST damage or ONLY machine doubled because to people with far less expertise dont understand how something doubled by a machine during the minting process that visibly shows letters behind letters or numbers behind numbers isn't considered an error.


In short, we don't! Everyone on this forum stays because they enjoy what they do, and wants to help. It's always exciting when someone really does find a great error/variety, whether major or minor.
But, in all reality like you said, is rare. Because of this, 9/10 times it is not what the OP thinks it is.

A number of people are in depth with they're reasoning as to why it's not, others keep it short and sweet. Both have their purpose. It's always helpful to to receive that in depth response, but at the same time, the short response leads the OP to do a bit more research. At least for me, I've gained MUCH more knowledge by doing a little research through reliable sources (key word "reliable").

It would be impossible for every member, with the number of posts in the error/variety section, to give an in depth response as to why damage to their coin is not an error. It goes both ways. There has to be some knowledge and effort put in by the OP to understand why this is the case. Doing the research to understand the minting process and how dies are made is key!

If 9/10 members say something looks like MD, it typically is. We're not perfect, but the collective group has A LOT of experience.
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 Posted 10/19/2020  11:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"The error varieties that the grading companies have made a list of are just the most common errors"

Errors are one thing, Varieties are something else entirely.
What is the difference between an "error" and a "variety"?

In simple terms, a variety is created before any coins are struck. The dies themselves
contain a anomaly or abnormality. A doubled die is not created as the coins are struck. A
doubled die is created when the die itself is made. Small dates, Wide AM's, repunched
mintmarks, and over mintmarks are the result of die changes or variations in the die.
Die Variety defined as "any minor alteration in the basic design of a coin".

An error is created as coins are struck. Errors are usually the result of dies being used too
long. When a die is used too long, die cracks, dropped letters, Machine Doubling,
laminations, filled-dies, BIE's, clashed dies and other errors occur. Other forms of errors, like
blank planchets, off-center strikes, chain-strikes, and broadstrikes are the result of the die
not striking the coin correctly. Errors are generally worth less than varieties.
an error is defined as "a mismade coin not intended for circulation".

Varieties are intentional and unintentional changes to dies before coins are struck.
Errors are unintentional mistakes or abnormalities made during striking.

There are some dramatic errors that have added value, then there are a lot that just don't, and not even really collectible.

There are also really common varieties that are low value that nobody really wants either, a whole lot of them actually, too many struck to be worth more than a buck or two.

Technically Machine Doubling, and Die Deterioration Doubling is "an error". it's just a really common error that nobody cares about, if it floats your boat, there's no reason you can't collect it if you like, just nobody is going to be impressed by your examples like they would if it was hub doubling, similarly I don't think many on here are going to be too impressed if a person shows up and post their bicentennial quarter collection as the only thing they collect it's common.

I have to be honest here now, it becomes frustrating when people constantly ask for validation yet refuse to even do the basic homework to understand what is an error or variety, what is hub doubling or a "doubled die" vs, mechanical or deterioration doubling.

It's vexing. I'm all for helping someone learn, When I spend the time to explain that "doubled die" is on the "die" not the coin and that every coin struck with that die looks the same,
I don't expect to see the same person come back again and again with Machine Doubling and it should at least click that they have some reading and understanding to do.

I've mostly refrained commenting anymore, because in my opinion, most people have no interest in "learning" and simply want validation that they have that $40K coin they saw on etsy chilling in their pocket.....
I'm not going to tell people what they have, just easier and kinder to move along and let someone else tell them whatever. I'm pretty much done trying to teach people that don't want or care to learn.

I wonder if no response is even more discouraging, than the truth of their coin and queston, but I hate to think I am encouraging people to be lazy also by giving them the fish.


Edited by Big-Kingdom
10/19/2020 11:39 am
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 Posted 10/19/2020  11:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well I try to tell the poster what I see on their coin. Sometimes accepted, sometimes not. But rather than argue, I tell them what I see, so they can see it also. I feel that is always better than a yes or no answer. Of course, it answers the question, but I like to explain why I say whatever to help them see it as well. Using this method can advance new students a lot faster than a yes or no answer. What took me years to learn, now new ones can learn in weeks.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 10/19/2020  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You can lead a horse to water,but you can not make him drink.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
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 Posted 10/19/2020  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Actual errors are unique and rare.


Well, not really. While each one may be a little different, there are a finite amount of ways legitimate errors can happen. (Varieties and damage can be endless.) This is why I always tell novices to ask the correct question, "How can this happen during the minting process." not "How can this happen?"

I have owned this forum for 15 years and been a part of many others, including various Facebook groups. I can tell you with almost absolute certainty that 95% or better of "errors" posted by novices can be fairly quickly and easily dismissed. Whether its glue, rolling machine or vending machine, vice jobs, Texas cents, etc.....

Heck I just saw this one on Facebook this morning....

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 Posted 10/19/2020  2:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ijn1944 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All the above--great material. Should be dissolved in an IV solution and administered to all who begin posting here--be pragmatic, and have an open mind as one begins the journey through all things numismatic.
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 Posted 10/20/2020  08:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent thread, JRVaults.
This should be a required thread for newer members that are feeling disheartened.

There is some great sentiments and information being shared by intelligent, new and experienced members. Bobby131313's question "How could this be made by the minting process?" is critical and what new collectors should ask themselves, because it is the actual steps in the minting process that determine errors and varieties.

JrVaults, don't get disheartened. Instead, put your coins in a flip, save them , continue to interact and learn, and revisit your coin in a couple of years and reevaluate it then.
ps. Old 2x2 flips can have PVC in them and damage coins with a green residue as the plastic breaks down. On older flips it looks like the plastic is sticking to the coin. So sometimes it is actually a good idea to change out the flips to a newer, more stable material.
Edited by Petespockets55
10/20/2020 08:15 am
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 Posted 10/20/2020  10:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How can you tell if your flips have an issue with PVC?
1. They are very flexible.
2. They will turn a BU coin purple that alters the surface in a bad way.
3. If the flip is not flexible, and stiff feeling, that is what you need to see on them.
I don't like flips as I like the coins to be horizontal in storage. But if you use them, you can take images like the thumbnails on coppercoins and put the image trimmed to to fit into the other side of the flip. Great for RPMs. You could copy these from coppercoins and transfer them to a page on Photoshop and print them and add to the other side of the flip But I still like 2X2s better.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
10/20/2020 10:44 am
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