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Thaler / Three Cent Thursday: 1856 Three Cent Silver Struck Over European Taler PCGS F15

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 Posted 01/14/2021  4:43 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add CCFPress to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Two birds, one stone: 1856 Three Cent Silver--Stuck Over European Taler--Fine 15 PCGS. Antique gray in color and average surfaces for the grade. A very curious coin, the date is quite weak on the Three Cent Silver strike, but the star is reasonably clear. The design elements of the Taler are clear, with TALER and an oak leaf present on the obverse, while the reverse sports the partial word WAR with an O to the right on the lower portion of the Three Cent Silver design. A great coin to study and show off.



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 Posted 01/14/2021  7:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is pretty cool!

Assuming the underlying Thaler come from a German-speaking country, the idiom is probably "hit two flies with one fly swatter".
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 Posted 01/14/2021  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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 Posted 01/14/2021  8:17 pm  Show Profile   Check BigSilver's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't seem to figure out what the host coin is. And how this came to be. Clearly the host had a bigger diameter than the 3cs.
Did it cut clean off during the strike? Does anyone understand this?
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 Posted 01/14/2021  8:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@big, for sure I don't know, but this feels like a mint-manufactured error to me. Perhaps a worker fed the Thaler into the blanking machine to get the planchet and then placed that in the dies to get a light trime strike? @bobby, do you have any better insight on this one?
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 Posted 01/14/2021  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is just weird....
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 Posted 01/15/2021  09:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I wonder about the weight of this coin. Every taler I've seen is a lot thicker than a trime. Unless the taler was rolled out to match the thickness of a proper trime planchet this coin has to be much heavier than a regular 3-cent silver. If the taler had been rolled the remaining letters would not be so boldly defined. PCGS should have stated the weight on the slab label.

Weird, impressive piece for sure.
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 Posted 01/15/2021  09:50 am  Show Profile   Check BigSilver's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
PCGS should have stated the weight on the slab label.

I was thinking along the same lines. Without knowing the weight, it is merely speculation on my part, but I don't believe that PCGS has this one right. I have been spending too much time already trying to figure out this mystery. I don't have anything concrete, but I'll keep trying. A few points
that T in taler doesn't look like a T. Think how wide that T would be if only one side of the ceiling is as wide as the floor of the nearby L?
Not many coins have the word WAR on them. Not as a whole word, nor as part of a word. But even still, think of the relative position of the WAR to the TALER. It is curved in a very unnatural position because it defies the natural curve of the coin. It should be relatively easy, using all of these clues to find the host, but I have been searching high and low and I can't find it.
Edited by BigSilver
01/15/2021 09:59 am
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 Posted 01/15/2021  09:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pretty cool for sure!
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 Posted 01/15/2021  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Check Paul Bulgerin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Paul Bulgerin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To me it almost looks like the other design is struck over the Three Cent Silver. While the star is quite weak, the design features of the other coin (?) are fairly sharp.

Is this a possibility?
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 Posted 01/15/2021  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Check Paul Bulgerin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Paul Bulgerin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am finding this a fascinating numismatic detective mystery. Since I'm taking a vacation day today, I took the time to page through my "Krause/Mishler Catalogue of World Coins", both the 1701-1800 and the 1801-1900 volumes.

I looked through the sections on German States, Austrian and Hungarian coins.

I could not find a single example where Thaler was spelled "TALER" instead of the usual "THALER".

With the tiny size of a Three Cent Silver, the other coin/piece must have been a small one, and there were no minor German States coins with the "TALER" spelling.

I'm wondering if the other piece might be a merchant's token which somehow accidentally, or through the intentional devices of a mint worker, was placed in the hopper and that was what resulted in this piece.

Perhaps the WAR is part of the word "HARDWARE"?

Lots of questions on this.
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 Posted 01/15/2021  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Check jdmern's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have not been able to come up with a Thaler that would match that either
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 Posted 01/15/2021  4:39 pm  Show Profile   Check BigSilver's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@paulbulgerin
I was thinking similar. I think (of course, the weight could disprove this) this is parts of a civil war token struck on a 3CS.
I think we are seeing EALE from dealer or something like that. And WAR can be from wares, hardware, or even war itself from war claim office tokens.
I also don't think this was a single coin struck on the 3CS, but test stamps of parts of another die.
Either way, after hours of searching, I've convinced myself that PCGS cannot be right here.
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 Posted 01/15/2021  4:59 pm  Show Profile   Check Paul Bulgerin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Paul Bulgerin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Big Silver,

Yes! What PCGS took for TALER could well be DEALER.
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