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Disturbed By A Displaced Divot '58 LWC

 
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 Posted 02/23/2021  10:48 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I've moved past the newbie curses to a stage whereby I begin to embrace a clear grasp of what can and cannot take place inside the coin press collar at the mint. At this juncture, most things I find are things that I know had to occur post-collar. I've even gone so far as to diagnose events that I deem could only have taken place outside the mint. I get cocky? I get this! l

What at first looked like an innocent, thus common, die chip on the edge of the wheat stalk, just happens to fit the exact size and shape of the divot at the base of the "T" in "CENT". The remainder of the divot appears to have fallen away from lack of underlying support. I'd love logical explanation as to how and when - both or either explanation welcome.

Kevin




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 Posted 02/23/2021  11:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Die cracks and breaks. (On the 'T')

Side view.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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United States
171 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2021  11:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@coop

Thank you once again for devoting time on my behalf I'm not sure what I'm being taught.I have scores of wheaties with die cracks on the "T". I find them quite easy to recognize. 1955 was a banner year.Are you saying I need to know more about them?

The entity on the wheat stalk began life at the base of the "T" on this coin. I just don't see how it could end up there.

Kevin
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United States
1957 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2021  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stoneman227 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What Coop was trying to illustrate is that a die event like a crack or chip in the face of a die will be filled by coin metal during the strike. This will leave a raised spot above the intended design of the coin. A divot or recessed area that is not part of the coins design can have a number of causes, before and after the strike. On your particular coin the cause of thedie chip on the wheat ear precludes it being any kind of transfered piece of metal from the bottom of the T.
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 Posted 02/23/2021  1:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Stoneman277

I humbly suggest that there is little to know in order to discern a coin produced by a chipped die and one produced by an intact die. I humbly claim to know that little.

I very much appreciate the time you have devoted on my behalf. This coin was not wrought by a chipped die. This I know.

Kevin

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241 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2021  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HGK3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The thing to remember is that everything that exists on the face of the coin, excluding post strike alterations, was created in one microsecond. That microsecond is also the same microsecond that the die is exerting maximum downward pressure on the face of the coin.

So when we see something raised off the face of the coin it has to be either post strike damage (created after the strike), an inherent defect in the coin (such as a lamination problem) or else it was put there by the die at that moment of maximum downward pressure.

There really aren't any other ways to get a raised element on a coin surface.

Of those three choices, your coin shows all the hallmarks of having a chip missing from the die on the wheat stalk and perhaps an incipient crack on the T, but more likely just a slightly larger chip.

It's worth noting that chips are far more likely to form over devices than fields because the stresses put on the die are greater where the metal changes directions causing the die to weaken at those points first.

It's also worth noting that the reverse die is starting to show some wear. Notice how the tops of the letters in EPU look like they're starting to bleed into the rim? That's a sign of Die Deterioration.

It's a very nice coin overall, by the way.
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 Posted 02/23/2021  11:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When you see something raised on coin, there was a chip that broke off the die. When that happens, the die has a void there. Each new coin will contain that void until the die is retired. But, as the die ages, more chips can breakaway of the die, making the void larger, or even creating a new void. When enough of the die breaks away, then it is called a die break. That is what you are seeing on the 'T'. Not enough to retire the die, just creating a die 'event'. Part of the scenery we see on our travels on a coin.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 02/24/2021  09:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The very LAST thing I want to happen is that I come across as either argumentative or as a smart-aleck. I am truly neither. I am appreciative of these offers of help and take full responsibility for deficiencies in my images that appear to be skewing everyone's efforts. I'll try harder.

I quickly latched onto @HGK3's suggestion I might be viewing a lamination error on the "T". I cannot yet latch onto the possibility this coin was struck by a chipped die. As stated earlier I have many hundreds of coins that were struck by chipped dies to use as reference. I attach an image that, I hope, compensates better for the missing third dimension that imparts much advantage. I risk being convicted of Pareidolia, I'm sure.

I still cannot fathom how this could occur.

Kevin

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United States
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 Posted 02/24/2021  2:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HGK3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Trying to determine if a 3 dimensional phenomenon is raised or incuse when you're only presented with 2 dimensional representations can be very tricky. There's just no depth of field perspective to help you make this determination.

Based on my perceptions of the coin photos, the area on the base at the base of the T is raised, not incuse. I draw my conclusions based on shading is see at the edges in the extreme closeup provided.

Further, the area on the T has a smooth domed shape to it and also has "squiggly" trailing off bits as you move up the T.

Those are classic characteristics of a cracked die. At the moment of striking the die forces the metal on the coin to extrude up into the crack, causing the metal to a) be raised on the surface of the coin and b) assume the shape (more or less) of the crack.

I previously mentioned lamination as a possible source of raised material on the face of a coin, but did not mention it in connection with your coin. Lamination errors also tend to have a distinctive shape that your coin does not show.
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 Posted 02/24/2021  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Alas, @HGK3 I fear your perception may be in error. My problem lies in the fact that I spent my working life as a laboratory technician in a product development lab for Nashua Corporation whose wealth flowed from its mastery of discreet particle technology. The army of chemists who supervised me and co-signed my lab reports would have balked at paying a tech unable to discern a particle from a cavity under a scope.

I know a lot about manufacturing processes as well. When my team developed a new product (for instance DAVAC which we coated on monstrous rolls of paper and sold tom the Bureau of Engraving and Printing to make U.S. postage stamps. I also worked on early development of carbonless copy paper and heat-sealed Tyvek medical packaging). I was often required to take charge of an entire wing of the factory - always the 11:00 PM to 7:00 AM shift for some reason. Again, I don't want to be a smart-aleck, and I probably could swallow being treated like an idiot if a few intelligent answers were included in the same package.

Consider, please, holding onto your perception while at the same time hypothesizing the antithesis of your perception. Hypothesize that the cavity in the last image is a cavity and the metal particle is a metal particle. Observe the intricate matching details of size and of shape and then if you can educate me please do so. Beyond the requested hypothesizing, if the cavity is a particle it will be no no one's loss but my own.

Kevin
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 Posted 02/24/2021  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HGK3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Hypothesize that the cavity in the last image is a cavity and the metal particle is a metal particle. Observe the intricate matching details of size and of shape and then if you can educate me please do so.


Other than to note that the intricate details of which you speak do not match in either size or shape (although they are close, there are enough differences to defeat your assertion quite plainly) I will decline to educate you as to your hypothetical question because it's yours, not mine.


If, on the other hand, you'd like to educate me as to your hypothesis, then please do so and I'll be happy to consider your explanations with an open mind.


Quote:
I don't want to be a smart-aleck


No one thinks you have been


Quote:
I probably could swallow being treated like an idiot


No one has treated anyone like an idiot


Quote:
if a few intelligent answers were included in the same package.


A few intelligent answers have been given to you already. Your disagreement with them does not render them unintelligent.


Quote:
My problem lies in the fact that I spent my working life as a laboratory technician in a product development lab for Nashua Corporation whose wealth flowed from its mastery of discreet particle technology. The army of chemists who supervised me and co-signed my lab reports would have balked at paying a tech unable to discern a particle from a cavity under a scope.

I know a lot about manufacturing processes as well. When my team developed a new product (for instance DAVAC which we coated on monstrous rolls of paper and sold tom the Bureau of Engraving and Printing to make U.S. postage stamps. I also worked on early development of carbonless copy paper and heat-sealed Tyvek medical packaging)


At best that's totally irrelevant to the discussion and at worst it's the logical fallacy of arguing from authority.
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 Posted 02/25/2021  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@HGK3, Perhaps we could try a little harder to stay out of each other's way?
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