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2016 Quarter With Odd Coin Properties. Can You Help Please?

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1310 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2021  2:55 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hopefully someone here can help lift the secret this coin has hidden.

This 2016 Quarter belongs to a Port Alberni, BC coin club friend.
He is wondering what this coin is all about and/or if it is worth keeping and getting it certified.
Charlton says it should have the same properties as the 1999P quarter.
The coin is Magnetic and very, very slightly circulated. what appears to be wear, is only extreme slight wear. However, the dimensions and properties are considerably different from the 1999P.
The edge seems to be wider and it does not appear to be a spooner. It also appears that the reeding is either gone totally or never was there, as it is even and smooth all around and showing copper color all around with some "nickel" color traces. Could not be smoother, just as there is/was no reeding at all.
diam: 23.49mm (23.88) thickn on edge: 1.82mm(1.58) weight: 4.44 gr(4.4) magnetic.
My friend had it analyzed with an XRF unit and he got the following values:

This coin: CU 57% Ni 36% FE 6%
1999P coin CU 49% Ni 33% FE 16%

Thank you everyone for your input and help







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 Posted 04/01/2021  3:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Someone had posted a coin that looked like this (was it this coin?) either on this or another site (maybe CaC or Coin Talk). Do an archive search, maybe. I have no clue what the coin is.
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Canada
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 Posted 04/01/2021  3:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okie, was not me, I just got the coin yesterday.
Who is CaC
Edited by 47P7
04/01/2021 3:35 pm
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 Posted 04/01/2021  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CaC = Coins and Canada coin site
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 Posted 04/01/2021  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Okie
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United States
4836 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2021  3:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like the nickel plating was abraded away on the high points and edge. I wrongly assumed these were just nickel-plated steel when a similar coin showed up on the forum recently, but I was informed by another member that there's actually a layer of copper under the nickel. It seems that the specifications you gave are explained by natural variation.


Quote:
This coin: CU 57% Ni 36% FE 6%
1999P coin CU 49% Ni 33% FE 16%

I don't know much about the mechanics of XRF, but I'd guess it penetrates through the thin plating and picks up all three layers.
Edited by Numisma
04/01/2021 3:56 pm
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Canada
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 Posted 04/01/2021  4:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Numisma
I looked and could not find. do you know which forum it was?
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 Posted 04/01/2021  4:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From the inside out, it's a steel core, then nickel, then copper, then nickel again. Depending on where the XRF was pointed and how much outside nickel was still there at that point, the reading would be all over the map.
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 Posted 04/01/2021  4:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Numisma
I looked and could not find. do you know which forum it was?


Here it is. SPP-Ottawa explained it pretty well.

http://goccf.com/t/393423
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 Posted 04/01/2021  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is no hidden secret.
It's a damaged coin.
No more no less.
I am surprised and quite disappointed that at a coin club no one has enough knowledge of the minting process to understand that this cannot occur at the mint.
What do you people do at your meetings?
Needlepoint?
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Edited by DBM
04/01/2021 5:15 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
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 Posted 04/01/2021  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
DBM
Thank you for your input here.
What do we do at the clubs? Usually, at one of the two clubs I belong to it is very often just Twisting thumbs while waiting for the auctions mostly priced at trends.!!
Personally, I have not much interest HOW a coin comes to be. I am not a mechanical guy. I did say this often enough. I am only interested in the end product. And usually only before 1968, back to 1858.
Your question what do we do? takes a while to explain.
What some original members say goes... to much extend. anything new, unless it comes from them, is seldom of interest. they all wait for the auction.
The club to the west of me, Port Alberni, is a bit different. we usually have fun and we learn.
So the coin in question comes from a member in Port Alberni. And since there was NO meetings for a year or more, we sort of have contact by email or phone. And, at times, as it happened yesterday, (i drove 75 Km to get my Covit vaccin shot there) 2 of us met for a few minutes or so to exchange some coins.
BTW, you are welcome to come as a guest, at either or both clubs, when meetings go again. So u can see for yourself. Remember, we are small town clubs.
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 Posted 04/01/2021  5:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NUMISMA, DBM, SPP
thank you for the link. it is most certainly very interesting.
Not trying to be ignorant here.
It is interesting that a Mint issue is called damaged when used for its intended purpose, and by normally using it, it is being "consumed or easily damaged".
Is it damaged simply by using the item?
IMO it is obviously a mint issue as the plating alloy mix likely is not exactly suitable for the application it was meant. Yes, PMD might be the right description. BUT not when the cause is at the origin and the use results in PMD.
Also leaves the following questions open:
What happened to the reeded edge? it is not there on this coin!! was it maybe too soft to withstand everyday usage?
I looked at the other post the images there and I believe it does show reeding on that coin.
why is the diameter different? If the reeding would be there it might be dead on?
and why is the thickness different? does it maybe have to do with the somewhat higher than normal rims?
too many open questions to just say "damaged goods"
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 Posted 04/01/2021  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cars are damaged every day in the course of normal use.
That does not necessarily mean they were faulty.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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United States
4836 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2021  7:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It is interesting that a Mint issue is called damaged when used for its intended purpose, and by normally using it, it is being "consumed or easily damaged".
Is it damaged simply by using the item?
IMO it is obviously a mint issue as the plating alloy mix likely is not exactly suitable for the application it was meant. Yes, PMD might be the right description. BUT not when the cause is at the origin and the use results in PMD.

I see no evidence of problems before it left the mint. The coin was originally plated and has since been abraded, likely intentionally.

Quote:
Also leaves the following questions open:
What happened to the reeded edge? it is not there on this coin!! was it maybe too soft to withstand everyday usage?
I looked at the other post the images there and I believe it does show reeding on that coin.

The reeded edge has been abraded. You can see the patches of copper where the reeds were- at the low points, the nickel plating wasn't worn through, but copper was exposed in most places. It looks like the abrasion got all the way through the copper at the highest points.

Quote:
why is the diameter different? If the reeding would be there it might be dead on?

It looks like its only 0.39 mm smaller than normal, according to your measurements. That could easily be explained by removing the reeds.

Quote:
and why is the thickness different? does it maybe have to do with the somewhat higher than normal rims?

The rim thickness can vary a bit depending on planchet thickness and striking pressure. I don't think that value is unusual.

Everything about this coin indicates that metal was removed after it was struck. There's just no way this could have happened at the mint.
I hope this explanation helps.
Edited by Numisma
04/01/2021 7:53 pm
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 Posted 04/01/2021  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okiecoiner give a nice description of the layers in those plating coins. According by the side of the coin the last layer of NI do not adhered to the Cu plated layer. this could happened if the plating solution or the cathode where at the end of life or concentration.

Strange that a coins club do not know about those miss production defaults.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1310 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2021  10:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well, all very interesting and I learned things I had no idea about.
correct me if I am wrong. But in the end, it is lousy workmanship and terrible quality by the RCM, resulting in the appearance of PMD.
very educating I must say
thank you all for your input.
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