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1847/6 Seated Half Dollar Question And Grade?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 13 / Views: 439Next Topic  
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 Posted 04/10/2021  3:09 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Heymikep to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have two questions on this 1847/6 WB-9 Half Dollar. There are two die marriages that share this same obverse die, The WB-9 which has the overdate showing on EDS & MDS but not LDS and WB-10 which does not show the overdate.
1. Would PCGS be able to attribute this coin as an WB-9 MDS with only the base of the "1" showing? Usually this marriage shows the 1 46 but this coin only shows the 1. Basically can it be attributed with a partial overdate?
2. What would you grade this coin?

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.



Edited by Heymikep
04/10/2021 3:20 pm
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 Posted 04/10/2021  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Check Onedollarbillnut's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Onedollarbillnut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ANACS probably would, I don't know about PCGS
Tim Hughes
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 Posted 04/10/2021  3:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is that the overdate or just a die mark? It doesn't seem to correspond to the overdate markers in the PCGS overdate page for this coin.

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 Posted 04/10/2021  4:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS: "One of the main reasons for this coin to be so confusing is that the under date (1846) is not struck in the same location as the 1847, it is below it and to the left. Also, the 1846 date is not complete and obvious. The bottoms of the 4 and 6 show fairly well on early strike high grade coins along with the left side of the bottom serif of the 1, while the 8 seems not to be there at al."

The location of the mark appears to be where you would expect the right side of the serif on the 1, not the left side of the serif. Also the 1 overdate remnant mark appears in EDS coins when the 4 and 6 are also there. It seems hard to see how the smaller 1 serif would remain while the 4 and 6 remnants wear away.

The reference coin looks to have au58 details, au55 at least and looks like a strong EDS strike. The pictures are overexposed and not much can be said about the surface condition.
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 Posted 04/10/2021  4:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Heymikep to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On early and middle die state examples, the remnants of an 1846 logotype punch show clearly in the field below the prominent 1847. The base of the figures 1 46 are very evident on coins grading as low as Good. The 1847 was punched high and right in the field most likely after the mispunched 1846 was punched into the working die and then effaced to remove the error. The effacing, i.e., die polishing, also removed the lowest edge of the rock support above the date as evidenced by the ragged, uneven edge. I have not seen nor am I aware of any examples of this variety with the remnants of an underlying 8 from the first punching. 1846 Medium date logotype. A frequent question is "what is the underlying 1846 date size - Medium or Tall?" I created an overlay of images of the 1847 over 1846 and an 1846 Medium and Tall dates. The Medium date, punched low and slanting down to the right, was a perfect match as shown in the overlaid image at the right. Late die state without the 1846 punch. Whether from die wear or die abrading, the 1 46 remnants quickly disappear and later die state examples of this die marriage are known without the overdate visible.
In actuality, the base of the 1 is seen on at least one example and is the last to disappear. The LDS coins without any overdate are easily identifiable by the very high date, weak lower edge of the rock support, and the doubled obverse die (primarily noticeable along the right edge of the shield).
Here is an example of the overdate,

Edited by Heymikep
04/10/2021 4:34 pm
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 Posted 04/10/2021  4:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No opinion on the potential TPG attribution.

Beautiful coin! In terms of the grade, it's definitely at least high AU. To my eyes, there is just a touch of wear on the high points of the obverse and the eagle's head and right wing (our visual left) on the reverse.

The obverse shows light wear on the hair, clasp, folds, right arm, rock, knees and foot. The strike is a bit softer on the obverse, possibly reflecting die state more than strike quality. The reverse is much sharper, with minimal wear on the eagle's head, lower wing tips, and right talons. By appearance, the obverse would be AU-55. The reverse is a solid AU-58. Balancing obverse appearance with die state, IMHO the obverse also nets AU-58. The blended grade would be AU-58. I see an eye appeal plus on this coin. Net AU-58+. Great coin!
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 Posted 04/10/2021  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Heymikep, Would you be willing to post a closeup of the primary "4" and area just SW of it? On your first pic, at distance, I think I can see the left side of the remnant of the "4" beneath the primary "4." When I enlarge that photo, it pixelates, and I can't see it any more. I wonder if there might be just enough of a hint of it to persuade PCGS?
Edited by fortcollins
04/10/2021 4:50 pm
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 Posted 04/10/2021  6:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Heymikep to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@fortcollins, here is a closeup of the 4 and the 6. I could not see anything under 30x magnification but I do see a very faint line for the 4 from the photo. I do not see any remnants of the 6 though.

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 Posted 04/10/2021  6:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Heymikep, I would think that the clear remnant of the "1" and the weak, but still evident, remnant of the "4" should be more than enough for attribution. It might be worth sending the marked closeup pics along with the coin. If nothing else, somebody will probably glance at the pics, and maybe that's enough for them to take a harder look. I don't see anything to lose by doing it.

Really nice coin, and a tough variety.
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 Posted 04/10/2021  6:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
HMP, could you repost the pictures of the coin under normal lighting so that we could get a better sense of the surfaces since it appears that you have the coin in hand?
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 Posted 04/10/2021  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Heymikep to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are these any better?



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 Posted 04/10/2021  7:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll say high AU sharpness but unsure if this is market-acceptable. Reverse apparently cleaned at some point, along with the lower quarter or so of the obverse. The contrast is apparent.
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 Posted 04/11/2021  12:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thx HMP. Coin looks well struck but the surfaces lack luster. AU55 for me. Not sure if the surfaces are problematic, especially in the obverse. How do they look to you?
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 Posted 04/11/2021  10:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i like to see a lot more luster for a 58 grade. the details are there on the obverse but not the luster. I think the reverse holds the overall coin to AU55
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