1787 [counterfeit] Condor Token - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 13 / Views: 1,890
CentSation Pillar of the Community United States 713 Posts	Posted 05/22/2021 11:25 pm I think this is probably considered a copy of a token since Wilkinson is spelled incorrectly [unless it is considered an error]. It weighs 9.2g. I had the sleeve for this coin labeled as D&H 373a but I do not think that is correct. Would this have a D&H designation? And, if so, where could I look up that number? Thank you. Edited by CentSation 05/22/2021 11:25 pm Report this Post to the Staff

PaddyB Pillar of the Community United Kingdom 945 Posts	Posted 05/23/2021 05:39 am I do not have D&H so I can't get to an accurate designation for you. In Withers they list the "Wilkison" spelling mistake for 1788 as DH339, with two variations for edge lettering. It then indicates that in 1787 there are numerous variations numbered DH 340 to 374, but gives no more detail. It is probable that the spelling error is among these. For these it says: "Various edges. Genuine and counterfeits." What does the edge read? As to whether it is a contemporary copy - I can't help you at all! Report this Post to the Staff
NumisRob Bedrock of the Community United Kingdom 18014 Posts	Posted 05/23/2021 06:59 am A little more information here from my ancient (1966) Seaby's 'British Copper Coins & Their Values': My Trade List: https://goccf.com/t/194596 My Wants List: https://goccf.com/t/191710 Report this Post to the Staff
Coinfrog Bedrock of the Community United States 94367 Posts	Posted 05/23/2021 09:15 am I have no idea, but cool looking in any event. Report this Post to the Staff
westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9796 Posts	Posted 05/23/2021 10:07 am I like it, I know little about these but I like them a lot. I really like all old coppers especially 18th century coppers from the UK and the Americas. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Report this Post to the Staff
CentSation Pillar of the Community United States 713 Posts	Posted 05/23/2021 2:55 pm Thanks for the replies. The edge lettering reads: London, Anglesey, Liverpool That looks to be an excellent source of info and looks like it may actually be 373a (or similar). My only source [see pic] is 'The Provincial token-coinage of the 18th century' but only section IX (which has the Druid on the obverse) -- Definitely not 373 in my resource. Not sure of the differences in the sources, but if you are familiar, a brief explanation would be great. Yes, this coinage is interesting to me too. In a nutshell: Not enough low-denomination coins in circulation at the time [late 1700's] so private companies were 'allowed' to create their own money/tokens for payment. Report this Post to the Staff
PaddyB Pillar of the Community United Kingdom 945 Posts	Posted 05/23/2021 4:00 pm Ah - that is because you are in the Wales section of your reference. I think if you go to the Warwickshire section the numbers will tie up much better. The Dalton numbering system starts again for each County or region, so if you are in the wrong place to start with, it wont work. (Same as Krause.) Report this Post to the Staff
tokenscot Valued Member United Kingdom 82 Posts	Posted 05/26/2021 05:07 am This is the part of Dalton & Hamer that is relevant to the token shown. Report this Post to the Staff
CentSation Pillar of the Community United States 713 Posts	Posted 05/29/2021 12:13 pm tokenscot, Thanks for the reference: Proof-positive. Funny -- I remember emailing the seller [ ebay] about whether it was a counterfeit and I remember him replying, "we don't use that term" yet the whole page is titled Counterfeits. Report this Post to the Staff
westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9796 Posts	Posted 05/29/2021 2:48 pm I've slowly been reading the Condor Token Society Journals (1996-2017) that have been posted for free, to read and download, at the Newman Numismatic Portal (NNP). Fascinating stuff and some of it is still affordable even. https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/publi...etail/527391 "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Report this Post to the Staff
CentSation Pillar of the Community United States 713 Posts	Posted 05/29/2021 6:34 pm Thanks for the link westcoin, I'm going to check it over. Interesting that they spelled Condor differently -- Must be the whole 'two countries separated by a common language' thing. Report this Post to the Staff
JohnConduitt Pillar of the Community United Kingdom 725 Posts	Posted 05/30/2021 08:33 am It's interesting that there would be contemporary counterfeits since these weren't legal tender anyway. If you wanted to mint tokens you could, with whatever design you liked, as long as they didn't try too much to look like official coins. Presumably you might benefit from people thinking yours were redeemable with an issuer but there were a lot that weren't. It seems unlikely counterfeits would be as good quality as this one anyway. I think sometimes tokens get called counterfeits just because they weren't legal tender. The correct spelling is Conder, named after James Conder who wrote the previous widely used reference.. Report this Post to the Staff
CentSation Pillar of the Community United States 713 Posts	Posted 05/30/2021 9:39 pm I wondered the same thing regarding counterfeit tokens and the only reason I can think is that maybe it was profitable to melt the 'official' tokens down and make more counterfeit tokens at a lesser weight. Mine is just over 9 grams, but cannot find any weights for the actual version. Something else of interest I just discovered is proof versions of tokens -- That is taking it to the next level! Here is one such example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/152370879716 edit: Thanks for the spelling confirmation. Just found a reference that put the weight at 12.7g for a similar, legitimate version. Edited by CentSation 05/30/2021 9:55 pm Report this Post to the Staff
JasonKflo Pillar of the Community United States 1694 Posts	Posted 05/31/2021 10:25 am Cool coin , I love conder tokens . I only have a dozen I think but I plan on buying more in time. Report this Post to the Staff
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