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Interesting Charles III Contemporary Counterfeit 1 Real

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 472Next Topic  
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United States
32 Posts
 Posted 05/24/2022  10:25 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I'm most interested in counterfeit/genuine 8 reales but this 1 real caught my eye and was too cheap to pass up. It's too worn to make out much detail, but has very crude fonts and a goofy head shape for the king. Has anyone seen a similar one in perhaps a better state of preservation?

For reference, I measure the weight as 2.31 g, and have calculated a specific gravity of 8.6. Thank you for any input!



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United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 05/24/2022  11:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have very little experience with coins like this, so I wonder if it would be a Kleeberg type?
I know other members know more about them, so just wait for more replies.

I should add, although maybe already known, that 8.6 is within the range of brass / bronze.
The color seems to support that, so I wonder if a silver wash has been worn away.
The piece certainly looks well worn.
Edited by Albert
05/25/2022 12:07 am
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United States
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 Posted 05/28/2022  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Albert. I am not familiar with Kleeberg's work, other than that I believe it focused on 2 reales? Just bought a hard copy and am looking forward to reading it.

If I had to guess the composition I would say debased silver. It doesn't look like other brass items I have, but I could be wrong. I may get an XRF test if I can find a cheaper one, the last one I got at $25 cost more than this coin.
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 Posted 05/28/2022  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It did sell fairly low. The wear I think served the dual effect of masking its true nature and limiting its value to a CC collector (esp. the date not visible factor). Certainly a nice study piece, though... and of course, CC 1R are generally rare as a type. Has distinctly crude styling, definitely enough there to match to another example if they surface. I don't find any other examples in my photo files.


Quote:
...8.6 is within the range of brass / bronze.
The color seems to support that, so I wonder if a silver wash has been worn away.

The piece looks much more gray-colored in the auction photos. I would guess it to be solid-alloy whitish metal, silver enough in color on its own.
Edited by realeswatcher
05/28/2022 3:11 pm
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United States
32 Posts
 Posted 05/31/2022  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for checking your files realeswatcher - thought there was a chance you might have seen a similar one before.

I'll update the post if I end up getting a XRF test.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  6:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I bid more strongly for the other one as it IS dated - and I have in fact seen two others.

It's too bad your piece didn't have more meat left to it... definitely an interesting example.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  7:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Has anyone seen a similar one in perhaps a better state of preservation?


It's too bad your piece didn't have more meat left to it...


It's entirely possible that the coin was created in a worn state to begin with, and that this is actually a "near-Unc" example. A fake coin that looks well-used is more likely to be accepted than a shiny new fake coin, simply because it's less likely to be looked at closely; if people find a worn coin in change, people assume that such wear is caused by other people, so if all those earlier people accepted the coin, then the coin must be good. Counterfeiters have known and exploited this psychological quirk for centuries.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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 Posted 06/14/2022  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
...but not typically "worn" to the point of withdrawal from circulation, as this piece is!!
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1554 Posts
 Posted 06/26/2022  7:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I keep the largest inventory of Kleeberg CCC 2Rs in the world today. At the moment we are close to 180 varieties. I assist all collectors in determining the new varieties. Having said that Kleeberg's are only cataloged for 2Rs and 8Rs are of course cataloged under the GNL classification for the desirable Type I's. In terms of denominations we see increasing rarity moving left to right as 8R>2R>4R & 1/2R & 1R equally. Most of the rarest types (1/2 & 1R's) are brass, brass/bronze or bronze and rarely German Silver. In this piece we see a floating 7 in the date IMO, CAROLUS III, FF Assayer and Mexico City Mint. Perhaps a loop and the correct light angle can determine if its 1777, 1787 or 1797 IMO. All are quite rare with maybe 1-2 showing up in the marketplace each year for this denomination - Congratulations.

John Lorenzo
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 Posted 06/26/2022  9:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John:

-- I think that "floating 7" is just the final "A" in GRATIA... I see nothing there in the date area.

-- From what I've seen, legit "homemade" die/mold 4R are ABSOLUTELY rarer than 1/2R and 1R. I have pics of maybe a dozen colonial portrait "legit" (AKA handcut die/mold, NOT simple casts) 1/2R CCs... 15-20 1R... but just FOUR legit CC 4R:

1) that 1777 4R-sized but marked "8R" that we discussed a few years ago
*** though looking back at my notes on that, there may in fact be TWO diff. varieties of that 1777 - perhaps unrelated (?)

2) the rather common 1808 Santiago piece which may or may not be truly "contemporary". I recall Carlos Jara saying something about that piece dating ca. 1870 and it not really being a circulating "coin" (though most examples DO show wear).

3) a lone example of a 1778 Mo 4R that came out of England last year... SOOOOOOO POed that I missed it on eBay. Seller gave it away for like 10 bucks!!

4) 1823 Potosi - ex-Wnuck, Ponterio/Stack's Nov. 2012 sale.

Now, there's this Ringo group lot, but there's no specific inventory in the description and they only show one coin... and it is, unexcitingly, simply one of the 1808-So 4R. Was anything else legit in there?:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...o-collection

Then there's this lot, 5 pcs. all shown. However, one is the common 1808-So type, two are peninsular Spain... and the two Potosi pieces look to be simply silvered casts:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...eit-4-reales


----- PS: here's a Potosi cast 4R (LOOKS old/contemporary) out of Spain that's been sitting unsold for several years - any interest?:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/124270992208
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