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1802 Draped Bust Cent - Grade Opinions Please

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Germany
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 Posted 09/19/2022  12:10 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Draped Bust cent bearing the dates 1802 and 1803 have a reputation for being among the most common of the early cents.
This notwithstanding, there are some very interesting and scarce varieties struck in those years.

This particular example is a Sheldon 238, which at a relatively modest rarity 4 it is still the scarcest of the non-NC (NC=not collectible) cents of 1802. Features of S-238 according to Breen are: Widest date. Berries 5 and 4, with none right of E in ONE.

Furthermore, most specimens known are in low grades such that the best available specimens are 4 EAC VF30's, falling down to 3 VF25's and several VF20's.

I would be interested to hear your opinions on the grade of this coin.
The coin presents itself as seen in the photos, maybe a bit darker, and it actually has some faint mint lustre on the reverse (of course, impossible for me to capture in photos).

Let's see what you think.


Thanks!
Edited by GERMANICVS
09/19/2022 12:56 pm
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75227 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2022  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll say EF-45. Knockout!
Edited by Coinfrog
09/19/2022 1:13 pm
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United States
246 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2022  1:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinEnthusiast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My first thought was AU-50. Furthermore, the eye appeal of this example is excellent.
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 Posted 09/19/2022  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AU50 and looks almost problem free, probably net down to 45 (EAC) for light scattered marks and a couple of small dings.
One of the nicest examples I've seen and might be a top census coin or nearly so.

TPG's have a history of undergrading this variety because they confuse the overstrike and clashing with circulation wear.

If you ever want to cherrypick an S-238 apart from the berry, look at LIBERTY, the overstrike is diagnostic and usually can be seen even on heavily worn examples when the reverse has gone away.
Longhorn Coins & Exonumia
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 09/19/2022  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very very nice! AU-55.
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 Posted 09/19/2022  2:11 pm  Show Profile   Check jacrispies's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AU-50, very impressive specimen!
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 Posted 09/19/2022  4:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Fayette1800 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am at AU 55 very nice example. love it
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 Posted 09/19/2022  9:20 pm  Show Profile   Check CarrsCoins's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
45 market.

probably net 25 eac.

thats a fabulous coin.
I collect low grade large cents. I currently have >230 Sheldon varieties and >235 middle date Newcomb varieties.
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 Posted 09/20/2022  02:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks you, all, for your comments.

paralyse - you are quite right, the overstrike is the easiest way to identify S-238. I had forgotten this obvious attribute.

Regarding grade, well, I learnt that my example is positioned at CC #1 together with 3 other examples. The grade was XF40, EAC VF30. Yes, they are very tough!

These are the three other examples (I am reasonably sure).
Top left is the Holmes coin.





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 Posted 09/20/2022  08:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i dont understand why they come down so hard on grading when a coin gets close to the top of the pile. the coin is what it is regardless of what other ones have graded.

I had the obverse XF40 and right on the cusp of 45 and the reverse is closer to AU53. the coin should have netted at XF45 imo but I dont understand EAC at all. there's something seriously wrong with the folks that work there. maybe they dislike blotchy color

its an amazing top pop coin GERMANICVS. thanks for sharing it.
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 Posted 09/20/2022  10:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MisterT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Put me in the AU-50 camp. Outstanding!
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 Posted 09/20/2022  10:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
GERMANICVS, I believe yours is nicer than the other three.
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 Posted 09/20/2022  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
EAC is subjective net grading vs TPG which often issue a technical grade only with perhaps a + or * for eye appeal

The EAC technical grades max out (originally) at 60 and (nowadays) 63 which is a fully Uncirculated coin with fully intact mint luster, no signs of handling and very minimal surface disturbances (red/brown color doesn't come into play)

Two EAC graders can look at the same coin with a technical (sharpness) grade of, say, AU50, which by EAC standards is a nearly Uncirculated coin with at least 50% of the original mint luster remaining and slight traces of circulation

Depending on how those two graders like their coins to look, the net grade may be the same, a little lower, or much lower

Things like variations in color, surface porosity, planchet flaws, strike quality, surface disturbances/alterations, centering/die alignment, etc. will all be "valued" differently to different graders based on their preferences.

I consider OP's coin exceptionally attractive and only would drop it by 5 points (if at all) for minor surface disturbances (nicks/marks) -- a very strict EAC grader would probably be at 45/35 or even 40/35 for the same coin based on lost luster and a touch more circulation wear than you see on a strictly graded EAC 50 coin.
Longhorn Coins & Exonumia
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 09/20/2022  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Check CarrsCoins's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
eac isn't a company. they are a coin club.

ms 65 and ms 70 exist as eac grades. no coins are graded 70, so its only theoretical. 65 is a flawless full red.

to add to what paralyse has said - I think of eac and the third party grades like Fahrenheit and Celsius. its not that 1 is stricter or more lax. they are completely different systems that are using the same terminology to describe the same thing. grading is words and numbers used as shorhand to describe the state of the coin with the goal of agreeing on price.

net grading is a means to agree to a price on a coin in a time before cheap photography. eac net grading exists because early copper comes flawed. net grading describes the state of wear (also known as technical grading) and then detract points for things that would get a coin a details grade like nicks, rim dents, environmental damage or something like a hole.

net grading allows for nuance when describing details coins. xf details can mean anything. 45 net 8 means its pretty ugly while 45 net 40 means it might have some light nicks or a bit of roughness. then maybe I pay 8 money for the net 8 and 40 money for the net 40. for the S-238 in 45 net 8 you might look at vg8 money in penny prices ($275). 45 net 40 would be nicer than the finest known, 30 is $7500. call it $10k? both coins could have an identical grade from the third party graders. xf details.
I collect low grade large cents. I currently have >230 Sheldon varieties and >235 middle date Newcomb varieties.
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 Posted 09/21/2022  02:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Than you alll, again for your comments and paralyse and CarrsCoins for you in-depth explanations of what EAC grading is about. I found them very interesting.

I admit I have trouble with EAC grading as well, specially in arriving at a net grade after deduction for flaws.
The Early Copper Grading guide has been very useful to me as it provides examples and guidelines.

Coming back to my example (which I bought at auction here in Europe), the EAC grading was arrived at, I suppose, based on the pictures I provided.

In-hand, it is actually nicer than in my pictures. As I mentioned, it actually has some remnants of mint lustre on the reverse. Very pretty, and in my humble opinion, quite possibly at the top of the best known examples.
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13735 Posts
 Posted 09/21/2022  09:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
based on the comments regarding EAC grading I dont get the hype about sending coins to them. personally I wouldn't use them
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