1878 P Morgan Dollar VAM-85 New Discovery! New B1 Reverse!

I believe it has to be "the person who found it" that is reflecting the price because I just can't understand how both the VAM-85 and VAM-86 was minted before the VAM-80, and yet the VAM-80 and 85 are both found in uncirculated condition but yet no one thinks there are any VAM-86's in anything above XF out there, so the price for the XF VAM-86 is worth double what a MS-63 VAM-85 is worth. I kn ow I am a nobody in the community and the VAM-86 founder is well known (and even owns PCI) and it just makes me think maybe that has something to do with the price difference. It really doesn't matter to me as I am not trying to sell any of either, I was just wondering and that is why I asked

one could be drawn into a conclution, if the Vam86m is only found in EX persay condition, that it was actually minted before the VAM 85, which has only been found in MS condition...BBBSSS........the fact is....Both have few EXTREMELY few non exisiting populations......The truth of weather the Chicken or the egg got to the other side of the road first is irrelevant.....If one truely wants to understand the
"relevance of rareity" one only needs to go to PCGS site and check out the online facts of what was held in the FED banks for so many years, and how that has influenced the PERCIEVED populations and grades thought to exist back in the 50's 60's and 70's.......1,000 dollar bags of so many years EVEN the 1895-S,,,,in mint state....
To the point...some one is trying to CASH OUT on VAM 86 for its implyance of its only found in worn states SO FAR....wait till they HYPE that coin up and suddenly a Mint state coin is found...talk about "hype" and at 10 times the price of VAM 85.....I hate to see politics in coin collecting but there you have it...

Some things are OUT of our control.... The thought about the "VAMVIEW Guide" is a good example, a very well thought out, detailed "guide' as to the authors opinions of the gathered information of just that, a "guide" in their opinions based on what certain Vams sold for and this information "should" be an indication of the values of these coins.

I do not see this indicator as a reality factor, I see the sales being one price on one day and a complete different price on any given other day. I see the guide as a point of "ground zero" to work from, but not an exacting group of facts, simply because if people are going to want a coin, they will pay what they wish, or what they feel it is worth to have the coin in their collection.

I think also certain people in certain positions have the pull to have the playing field groomed to suit them, not others, I also feel their are people who stand to prosper better if the information put out there, while not necessary true, know better, but it would suit them anyway.........Politics did you say.PS, I would also like to put it out to all members who have an interest in the vamming hobby, how many members of the "other site', who are on the governing board, do you think are coin collectors, or are dealers, or are sellers of vams to the point of it being a strong income to support themselves, think about that!!!

Well, we're churning out new VAMmers as fast as we can here. That should help the market eventually.

I see and agree with the before the 85 and 86 therory, I clearly also see that the 85 being before the 80, and the coins found are in pl or dmpl I agree that there clearly must be examples of the 86 in the same condition, just NOT found yet. It does make perfect sense to me, I think in the near future, This will come to light, ON the other hand, could the evidence be wrong, that the 85 and 86 are NOT before the 80, I think not.......

As far as I'm concerned this whole die progression needs to be reexamined from scratch.

Known stages of 22 reach die cracking of a level that precludes additional use of the die, or successful polishing. 22B's cracks rise to the level of a break at the second left star, and that stage is also heavily-clashed on the obverse.

But it's an 8TF coin, by definition earlier than the B1's.(?)

Now. My sole personal example of VAM-80 - determined by careful comparison of the reverse cracks - has some weak obverse cracking which matches that of VAM-22. But it doesn't have the cracking under the date or to the first right star, and it does have cracks from right star 4 to 5 which don't appear on any 22.

In truth, I honestly don't think you can get from 22 to 80, in either direction. Be mindful here, we're not crystal-clear about timeframes in what was a very short period of furious change at the Mint (a matter of a month or so), and the very real possibility exists that there was a point where 8TF, 7/8 and B1 dies were in presses simultaneously.

Were the obverse cracks imparted by a defective master die? Just how much of the stuff we're pointing at came from the master die and the hub?

Now, for another thing. We don't have very much photographic record of V86, yet. What we do have, though, is one plate image (the bottom one at VAMworld) which appears to indicate that 86's nose was polished farther open than any of the other purported uses of the same obverse die. How does that fit in? Once that nose it lost, you can't add it back in later. The only conclusion is, if these are all one obverse die, V86 was the latest usage of it.

Here's my VAM-80:




Here's a 22 I snagged from Heritage:



You tell me. All I know is, it's obvious to me that we don't have it right yet.

....and the VAMworld plate pic for VAM-80 has no obverse cracks. The plate pics for VAM-22A have minor cracks, and indeed I haven't found a 22 without at least a little cracking.

I don't have an explanation yet, but things are fishy.