Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest! Check out our Google+!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

vam numbering system  
 

Next Page | Last Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3
Pillar of the Community
United States
3073 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2010  03:44 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
While its known, that there are issues withing the community for the numbering systems by which vams are assigned, it is also felt by many that an overhaul or renumbering would introduce chaos into the millions of dollars spent on the attribution of coins accepted in the present system....and that is to be understood.....mostly I think it is due to the fact that the numbering systems was assigned as they were found and that leaves little room for new discoveries which are being found every day.....NOW I AM NOT advocating a restructuring of the entire system...throwing everything into chaos,,,,,but rather I would like to
explore the best way to envelope the old with the new, and there is a new......its the year by year changes as they are deeply studied by those who have committed an ENORMOUS amount of effort and time AND MONEY to sort out the dates that have been extremely restudied...

For most of us, we wouldn't know or realize any one that would take this undertaking can have up to $5,000 out of pocket to study common coins and there 50 or 60 variations....
from these few people and there studies the have re-written some of the years/dates....and the numbers of the previously assigned numbers dissappear and are reassigned........

What is your opinion of the present transformation of older vams and the present renumbering which is limited to only a year by year in general.....Is this the best way to include the new findings as we have better technology to affirm the differances and the newly discovered varieties? or as many of the coins which were separetly numbered are actually die progressions......Lets have your opinions...... on how to inclued the new info and keep the integrity of the old.....
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1041 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2010  1:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiepb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've just barely got started looking at the VAM's of my Morgan dollars. It does seem like a very confusing numbering system where a VAM-5 for 1880 may be the same as a VAM-19 for 1884, but short of re-numbering the entire series, I'm not sure how it could be fixed. Perhaps a new cross-reference could be created where the above 1880 VAM-5 / 1884 VAM-19 would be a XYZ-7 regardless of the year. However, I suspect that would be just as confusing. I guess I don't have a good solution, but it'll be interesting to see what other members have to say on the subject.
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.

ANA Member since 2007.
Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2010  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On May 11, 2009, Norm Salter answered this same question as follows: "VAM-1 is always the normal die state for a specific date/mint and has no distinguishing characteristics. Die varieties that can be distinguished from each date/mint's VAM-1 are subsequently numbered incrementally (VAM-2, VAM-3, etc.) Sometimes a letter follows the number, i.e. VAM-1A. A "lettered" VAM represents a later stage of the numbered die that has a die gouge, major die crack, pitting, die clash, or any other result of a post-die-production occurence that can be shown to have changed the die. Like VAM numbers, letters are also assigned in a one-up fashion.

I am not an expert on this, but I'll give it a shot. If differences are found on the 1A, it gets broken out to sub-varieties 1A1 and 1A2. When you go from 1A to 1Z, you run out of letters... so it goes to double letters 1AA. There are also closed groups, as found in the 1878-P's. The 7/8's start at VAM 30, the B1 long nock starts at VAM 70, short nock at 100".


Moderator
Learn More...
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2010  7:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The 7/8's start at VAM 30, the B1 long nock starts at VAM 70, short nock at 100".

And the 78 Reverse of 79 starts at 200
Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2010  8:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From Logan McKetchnie on this same subject May 11, 2009 3:18 pm

"There is NO rhyme or reasoning behind the VAM numbers as between years and mintmarks. There is rhyme, and perhaps, reason for the VAM numbers within a certain year and mintmark. Leroy and George gave the coins numbers as they found them. Today, Leroy will go back and add to the orginal number if he sees something different: i., e, some VAM 1s are now VAM 1A1 and 1A2. At other times and in other years, he does stages: 228.1, 228.2, 228.3, etc. What will be done in any year or date is still up in the air. Sorry if this is just more confusing."
Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2010  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From Mark Kimpton, Athor of Elte Clashed Morgan dollars on this same subject May 14, 2009 8:05 am

To add to the confusion, the numbering system is based on the time the variety is discovered, not when the coin was produced. So some coins that are earlier die states, may have a VAM number that implies that it was produced later. This is not the case. It is simply that the earlier die pairing was not discovered until later. Such is the case in the 1891 VAM 2B. The 2B is an earlier die state than the VAM 2A, but was not recognized until after the 2A had been described.
Edited by Ozland
11/14/2010 8:58 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3073 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2010  03:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This all make sence.... with the exception of the majority of new/and old discoveries are made from very small die states not mentioned as die "Progressions"....and some of the most high TOP POPULATIONS are subject to this same point.....And who will differntiate....the old from the new? and the TPG's grades that are by NO MEANS consistant.......Does your ICG MS 65 carry the same grade as other PCGS? I doubt.......it.......M point is.........
WHERE IS THE Dividing line and why? WE do pay for the service........why is it's outcome so different.......

Lets here your opinion......and WHY...
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts
 Posted 11/19/2010  1:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This all make sence


It does? Which part makes sense? Who can correctly determine die state? Someone who does not know the workings of the press? What causes a clash? When does this happen? I know that everyone knows what causes clash marks, but what causes a clash? What is a clash? What causes a crack? When does it occur? Can it be removed? When? What causes polishing lines? When? Can they be removed? When? What causes denticle impressions? When? What are denticle impressions? When do gouges happen? When does any of this stuff happen? There are far more pertinent questions than there are correct answers. Who can claim to understand die states? Thirty or forty year of "experience" looking at thousands of coins is not a qualifier if you don't understand what you are looking at in the first place, because you don't understand what the machine that made these coins is capable of an what it is not. What is possible, what is probable, what is certain? Who can correctly assign die states?

What makes sense to me is that people want and need something they feel is concrete to believe in, and that is what they are given, whether or not that concrete assurance is of any realistic substance.


Quote:
NOW I AM NOT advocating a restructuring of the entire system...throwing everything into chaos


In what state of order do you perceive this so called "system" to be in now?

A complete restructuring, renumbering, overhaul of this chaotic mess is exactly what is needed.

1878 v-14 gets a number because it shares its obverse die with v-9 but has a unique reverse ?
1878 v-14.1 gets a number, period, number because it has a unique obverse and shares its obverse with v-14.10 ?
1878 v-15 gets a number only for the same reasons that v-14.1 gets number, period, number ?
1878 v-8 gets a number only because both obverse and reverse are unique ?
1878 v-22 gets number only because it shares its obverse with a B1 reverse designation ?
1878 v-9A gets a number and letter because of a clash ?
1878 v-130A gets a number and letter because of a gouge and a chip?

If any of that makes sense to you, then you have the ability to think far more abstractly than I can.

Drop all of this petty die state crap and get the basic die pairings sorted out first.

That is my opinion, since you asked for it.

Pillar of the Community
United States
3073 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2010  02:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think that's exactly what I am talking about...is a gouge worthy of a VAM designation? for almost every coin it is not, how ever money and politics do play a part for some things getting into the listings....
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2010  07:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had not considered the money and politics thing.....as that would be an ethical sort of implication......I considered it to be either simple inconsistency or maybe the act of biting off more than could be chewed and then gagging on it for lack of a graceful means of spitting it out.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3073 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2010  01:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was joking with you Zee as how it all makes perfect sense, It mainly appears to be "assign as they find them, and label them with the next number/letter or decimal that comes to mind?
Inevitably it will have to be all sorted out into some meaningful system, Take Russ's 80-0 VAM 6, of the 8/7 series .they appeared to made some revision.in 2009.where the gouge is included with the clashing of 6a, YET there is no reason why that gouge could not have occurred in its own time line....vam 6b got relisted as VAM 49 as it appears not to fit the 6 series die pair.., just one more example what happens when there is no logical assignment procedure...
These reassignments are all over and I believe it really make's it hard to figure out what is and what it was...And for the beginner of vamming I can see why its so hard to get a grip on vamming outside of learning some of the basics and memorizing PUP's for certain years...
the 1902-0 series recently was intensely studied and for example VAM 45 has 7 REV dies used, and are now listed as VAM 45 die's 1 through #7 NOW why where these not given unique VAM designation numbers
?that is what happend to 80-0 VAM 6B after all........
Perhaps thats why the started the hit lists?...better to focus on the certain vams than to figure out you have a fortune in coins and submittle fee's, and the vams continue to change.....that top pop coin is no longer top!! that's got to hurt!!
In the end, it would have been great to have a simple attribution chart from the beginning.....a simple chart that could have included the basic catagories that Morgan's get as production occurs.....such as doubling, clashing ect ect...sub categories could have allowed for new findings with out the next coin in the series to go to the end of the line......without a change into an orderly system, its just going to grow more unorganized........
Pillar of the Community
United States
2400 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2010  06:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Being that much disarray and confusion apparently still exist I would like to start off on the right foot learning VAM coins with the assistance of a reference guide that has some uniformity and recent common acceptance within the VAM community.

I am a novice in this area and find this area fascinating but truly mesmerizing with respect to the amount of scattered details.

The bottom line if that I need a recommendation of a straight forward reference guide illustrating at least the top 50 VAM coins in terms of financial worth.

This guide should have pertinent photos and reference numbers that both pros and novices like me can confidently use.

Does such a URL or paperback like this now exist? Please let me know.

Thanks
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1041 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2010  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiepb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
mdpmedia,

Yes, it exists here:

http://www.vamworld.com/

Good luck - it's as confusing as the posts here.
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.

ANA Member since 2007.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1425 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2010  11:50 pm  Show Profile   Check twohawks's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As many here know I really started looking at my Morgan's about a little less then 11 months ago. It was and at time now overwhelming. I know first hand as many here do as well that in many cases the numbering system can be confusing. Not to make light of this fact, but this has been a work in progress. I have sent in over 20 coins to L Van Allen that I thought should be revised, 12 have been. Every time someone finds an error and tries to help fix it it gets better.

Re inventing the wheel is not the answer. I have asked some very stupid questions... I really mean dumb with a capital (D) less then a year ago. The main idea is 2 heads are better then 1 and so on. We all are different people, with different background, and as Dave seems to see (Different Time Zones.)

My father always told my brothers and I that there are 3 kinds of people. Ones that try to make things happen, even if only by a little. Ones that watch things happen. and the others are What Happened. I know far less then many, but I will try as I may to repair or correct an error if I think it's there. If we all just do a little the VAM duplication and crossed die pairs will fix themselves with time and effort.

Just my opinion, right, wrong or indifferent
"The Necessity of Procuring Good Intelligence is Apparent & Need not be Further Urged"
General George Washington
Edited by twohawks
11/22/2010 11:52 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3073 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2010  12:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is what it is.........it is a system that has been started and developed from the early 70's. "DON"T QUOTE ME" but cataloging started way back...how ever.....the microscopic evaluations of today's findings were never even remotely considered..........And I do think that is something EVERY ONE can agree upon.........
And as a friend of mine has posted.....in todays times... even the pimples on the butt may get a VAM designation..........
SO WHAT HAPPENED.......from the early days....
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1425 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2010  12:23 am  Show Profile   Check twohawks's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That I could not tell you Gene.
I can and will honestly say when I first started looking over my coins. All I wanted was to find a new VAM. I am very much over that now. At least my first was a completely never cataloged obverse die, with a strong doubled second zero.

The A,B,C in the die progression can make the newer collector NUTS as they are not in order. And that just comes back to when they where found and recognized.
"The Necessity of Procuring Good Intelligence is Apparent & Need not be Further Urged"
General George Washington
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Ending Soon   Newly Listed   Lowest Price   Highest Price   Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2018 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2018 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.39 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05