Should Professional Graders Be Licensed ?

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stephen Valued Member United States 206 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 04:40 am Poll Question I am probably the most anti regulation individual on the planet ! However grading houses have a financial upside to holdering coins. Some grading submissions house have a sliding scale on bulk submission where the charge less for lower grades and more for higher grades. There are rumors that favoritism exists. There are rumors customers demand grades. I have been told by a head grader of a major TPG if graders do not make holders they do not get paid! A license to grade coins for compensation is a MUST. Coin World in 2003 sent the same raw coins to the top grading houses. The results where not acceptable, some coins had a 7 point difference from one TPG to the next. First it would help that your grading fees went to graders who know how to grade, having passed a grading test and holding a revocable license, (this might mean a standard for grading that is in print and loops would have to used). Second if called out on multiple mistakes or over-grading, have a organization such as the ANA to answer to. Funded by the the licensees and the grading houses only.. The grading houses would not have control over there employee graders. I believe top rate graders have left over this issue voluntarily or involuntarily.. Our way or the highway.. This idea has been tried before with no results. Since there is no way to force the grading houses adopting this on the collector or dealer level. The ANA my have a shot, with huge member support. What would the grading houses have to lose other then control.. I personally would feel the whole coin community would benefit from this and the TPG would gain creditability. Poll Choices Third Party Graders Should be Licensed Third Party Graders Should Not be Lisensed Edited by stephen 12/01/2010 04:49 am Report this Post to the Staff

SsuperDdave Moderator United States 23522 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 04:49 am Who knows enough to license them? Report this Post to the Staff
stephen Valued Member United States 206 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 04:57 am How about the grading instructors at the ANA summer seminar Report this Post to the Staff
John1 Moderator United States 56855 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 05:58 am What about that company,not sure of the name-GNA I think, that graded grading companies? That didn't seem to catch on very well,after all you are still taking someones opinion on the grade of your coin. It all boils down to reputation. I trust PCGS over the rest,my personal choice based on what I see in there slabs. I am far from a good grader but I do have an opinion on what I see. The best thing is to learn to grade yourself and then as always, buy the coin not the holder.As far as regulating grading companies I vote yes,enforcing the regulations, I don't see how they could.IMHO. John1 Report this Post to the Staff
Maineman750 Pillar of the Community United States 3592 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 06:02 am You are not as anti-regulation as me. But I think that as long as there is the "human factor", you'll always have the same rumors and problems...just take a look at our government. Report this Post to the Staff
fcrazo Pillar of the Community United States 651 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 8:36 pm Let ANACS be the judge as many have noted they are the most conservative. Edited by fcrazo 12/01/2010 8:37 pm Report this Post to the Staff
wheatguy Pillar of the Community United States 1534 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 10:49 pm Quote: Should Professional Graders be Licensed ? No. TPG's do have strict guidelines for anyone who wants to be a grader and there will always be different opinions on a grade of any specific given coin. Even the most similar individuals will have different views. Quote: as many have noted they are the most conservative Good point, although the goal is to be the most accurate, not conservative. Being overly conservative is not necessarily always the best way to grade. Report this Post to the Staff
Adam_E Pillar of the Community United States 4846 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 10:51 pm well said wheatguy, I completely agree Report this Post to the Staff
stephen Valued Member United States 206 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 11:22 pm You are presuming Wheat Guy that all coins are graded accurately from TPG. Their are two ways to grade, market grading and technical grading.. I find technical grading to be more accurate .. The saying goes buy the coin not the holder,, If one is looking at coins for purchase and practices this, he will use a loop to view the coin. I have heard first hand that some coins are not looked at under a loop in the TPG houses when graded.. So the point is coins that have excessive hairlines that can not be seen by the naked eye at a rate of many a minute, but show up easily from using a loop are ungradable coins in a high grade holders. This is an advantage to the buyer who can grade a coin and pass on it, but does this ungradable coin deserve to be in a high grade holder?. It becomes buyer beware and cross your fingers when buying slabbed coins if one has minimal grading skills. The prime example of gradeflation is of cousre the 1804 half dollar It started as a VF35 in a TPG holder and was cracked and graded by another grading house then cracked and sent to another grading house till it became a AU58....13 points higher. Perhaps loops where not used on this coin either..... Wheat Guy if you can justify this public information of grade inflation then I will concede we need no regulations for professional graders.. An experiment that was conducted by Coin World the largest numismatic weekly magazine.. In 2003 Coin World conducted an investigation of PCGS, NGC and ANACS, three of the leading grading services. In this investigation, several coins were sent to each grading service. In not one single case did the grading services agree on the grade of any given coin, and in some cases the difference in grading was seven points off. It is standard in U.S. numismatics to grade coins on a point-scale from 1 (poor) to 70 (perfect) Edited by stephen 12/01/2010 11:36 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Scooby Due Pillar of the Community United States 4000 Posts	Posted 12/01/2010 11:28 pm I think all it would really do is create a longer line at the DMV. And as mentioned, who grades them? It all comes full circle to an opinion again. Not to mention you'd put a lot of the TGP's* out of business. No new taxes! The earth is 2/3 water and I have to have a license to catch a fish. To catch a fish! *-third grade parties (you know who you are!) Report this Post to the Staff
stephen Valued Member United States 206 Posts	Posted 12/02/2010 12:39 am Then bherring I suppose a grade on a coin would be meaningless 7 points to 13 points off on different grading houses!!, We might as well go back to flips with raw coins graded by the seller if there are not standards in place. TPG might as well use a dart board with grades on it for each coin.. eye appeal and luster are there or not. they can add a little but take off a little also.. only a small % of over all grading of a coin. And you are speaking of ms coins only. Report this Post to the Staff
stephen Valued Member United States 206 Posts	Posted 12/02/2010 01:15 am FTC CHARGES COIN CERTIFICATION CO. MISREPRESENTS OBJECTIVITY OF ITS COIN GRADING SERVICES; COMPANY AGREES TO SETTLEMENT The Federal Trade Commission has charged that Professional Coin Grading Service, Inc. ("PCGS") misled consumers by falsely claiming that it provides consistent, objective grading of coins and that investment in PCGS-certified rare coins eliminates all the risk associated with the grading of coins. Under a consent decree filed August 16 in federal district court, PCGS is prohibit- ed from making false representations about its objectivity, con- sistency, or the liquidity of its coins, and from making deceptive statements about the risks of investing in graded coins. According to the FTC's Boston Regional Office, which handled the investigation, PCGS was formed in August 1985 by seven promi- nent rare coin dealers for the purpose of providing a consistent, impartial, "certified" coin grading service upon which purchasers and sellers of rare coins could depend. For a fee of approximately $25 to $100 per coin, PCGS claimed that a coin would be impartially and accurately graded by several of "the world's top grading experts." According to the complaint accompanying the consent decree, PCGS falsely represented that its grading system is objective, con- sistent, and unbiased; that an investment in PCGS coins eliminates the risk associated with the grading of coins; that its coins can be liquidated easily at reasonable, competitive prices; and that it observes a "strict anti-self interest policy." In fact, the complaint charges, PCGS has not provided object- ive or consistent grading, and coin grading involves a certain amount of subjectivity. Not all PCGS-certified coins can be li- quidated easily at reasonable, competitive prices, according to the complaint, and PCGS does not in all cases observe its "strict anti-self interest policy." In addition, the complaint charges, investment in PCGS-certified coins does not eliminate all the risk associated with the grading of coins. (More) Under the terms of the consent decree, PCGS is subject to num- erous prohibitions and requirements. PCGS is prohibited from mis- representing that its grading is objective, consistent or unbiased, or that an investment in PCGS-certified coins eliminates all risks associated with the grading of coins. PCGS is also prohibited from misrepresenting that PCGS-certified coins are liquid at reasonable, competitive prices. In addition, for a period of two years, PCGS must disclose in all of its advertising and promotional material that "Certification by PCGS does not guarantee protection against the normal risks associated with potentially volatile markets." The decree further requires that any claims about the safety or security of an invest- ment in PCGS-certified coins be accompanied by a clear and conspic- uous disclosure that the rare coin market is highly speculative and subject to risk. PCGS must also clarify its liquidity claims with a disclosure that the degree of liquidity, and the availability of markets for certain coins, will vary from time to time. The complaint and consent decree were filed in the U.S. Dis- trict Court for the District of Columbia. Professional Coin Grading Service, Inc. is based in Santa ANA, Calif. A consent decree is for settlement purposes only and does not constitute admission of a law violation. Consent decrees have the force of law. Copies of the complaint and consent decree are available from the FTC's Public Reference Branch, Room 130, 6th St. and Pennsyl- vania Ave. N.W., Washington, D.C. 20580; 202-326-2222; TTY 202- 326-2502. Report this Post to the Staff
BH1964 Bedrock of the Community United States 10982 Posts	Posted 12/02/2010 01:44 am "Most ominously, Weiner (New York Congressman), a member of the House Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade and Consumer Protection, apparently induced the Federal Trade Commission to issue consumer alerts cautions Americans about investing in gold.....Regarding coin grading, one alert stated flatly: "Subjectivity in grading means there is real inherent risk in coin investing." The FTC further advised that coin buyers should "expect to hold your investment for at least 10 years before realizing a profit". Perhaps the FTC would rather have you spend your money on real estate or stocks - no risks there at all! ANA #R3154474 Report this Post to the Staff
vermontensium Moderator United States 16679 Posts	Posted 12/02/2010 02:19 am Their opinions are really no different than yours and mine except they do it full time. I have sent the same coin to all three major TPG's, with different results for the same coin, including cleaned, cleaned/corroded, and questionable color. I am really questioning these "professional graders" expertise. swcoin.ecrater.com Report this Post to the Staff
stephen Valued Member United States 206 Posts	Posted 12/02/2010 02:47 am "The FTC further advised that coin buyers should" "expect to hold your investment for at least 10 years before realizing a profit". Not a good statement to make for the FTC. What if the coin is over graded or upgradable? when you go to sell it.. the "buy the coin not the holder " principal apply,s and you have melt value for your coin or less then you paid for it..And the grading company has gone t.ts up. I believe the Goldline investigation is what FTC is working on for the Commerce Committee from what I have read. When gold hits 2300 an oz you will be then making money if your buy bullion coins from them.. Report this Post to the Staff
John1 Moderator United States 56855 Posts	Posted 12/02/2010 07:27 am Just an update on my OP. It's not GNA that I was thinking of it's CAC http://www.caccoin.com/ Thanks, John1 Report this Post to the Staff
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