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 Replies: 12 / Views: 4,155 |
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Pillar of the Community
Norway
510 Posts |
I recently got an offer to buy a French coin - 44 sols 1719. I cheched my Krause for it and found it was listed as 1/2 ecu (44 sols). So far, so good. But I checked a couple of pages back and forth and found an astonishing fact. No other coins lists 88 sols to an ecu. We have 30 sols (1/4 Ecu), 24 sols (1/5 ecu), 20 sols (1/6 ecu), 15 sols (1/8 ecu), 12 sols (1/10 ecu) and 6 sols (1/20 ecu). All of these point at 120 sols for one ecu. We also have another oddity, 10 sols (1/8 ecu) which points to 80 sols pr ecu. And 1/3 ecu with no sol value given. What gives?  All of these were minted as the same time period, and NONE of them - as far as I can see - have denomination(s) given on the coin. How did the French tell them apart? Only by weight? The weight for 1/2 Ecu (44 sols) is listed as exactly double that of the 30 sols (1/4 ecu)...both 0,917 silver...  I would be thankful if anyone has any information about this. I am flabbergasted. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4212 Posts |
Alot of these come out of China
Be careful please.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2669 Posts |
In many countries, denominations were revalued over time. Wikipedia page on the French Ecu mentions this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ecu - I'm sure someone with more knowledge on the actual years this happened will be along to help more. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3342 Posts |
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Pillar of the Community
 Norway
510 Posts |
xshift, your wikipedia article lists 1/2 ecu as being 60 sols. Not 44. What I would like to know, because I collect denominations, is what these coins were called at the time they were minted. I am amazed they could have so many different denominations without putting any information on the coins themselves.
I will beware of forgeries, thank for the tip guys.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2669 Posts |
Quote:
I am amazed they could have so many different denominations without putting any information on the coins themselves. I think at the time, you were simply supposed to know, based on the size and/or weight of the coin itself. Many Great Britain coins have no denomination - we have to figure out what they are based on size and weight. So at the time your coin was minted, everyone would know what it was supposed to be - it's only us chumps that have to research to figure it out. I don't think they thought much about future generations having this problem  The link was only meant to illustrate that the value was changed over time. Your 44 sols may have been 1/2 Ecu at the time it was made. Following the links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livre_tournois they list 2 examples of changing value: Quote:
For example:
* the worth of an écu d'or, a French gold coin, was changed from 60 sols to 57 sols in 1573.
* to curb increasing use of the Spanish real, its official worth was decreased to 4 sols 2 deniers in the 1570s.
Preview of a table listing changing values for the French Ecu: http://books.google.com/books?id=uo...ge&q&f=falseIt could definitely be counterfeit (until proven otherwise by research), I was just pointing out that the values changed, and there may need to be research done. Also keep in mind that Krause has errors, as any book does. It could give you an angle to start your search, but it's not inconceivable that they may be wrong in listing it as a 1/2 Ecu. Does your coin actually say 44 sols? Do you have a picture you could post? |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2830 Posts |
the first British coin to be denominated was, I have heard, the Farthing of 1799.
A lot of these shifting values derives from changes in the relativre prices of gold and silver: for another instance, the value, in shillings, of the British Guinea-coin altered considerably over a century or so.
Admit it: this is exactly why collecting by denomination is so fascinating.
Peter in Oz
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Pillar of the Community
Norway
510 Posts |
Quote:
Does your coin actually say 44 sols? Do you have a picture you could post?
No, it does not say anything - which is a letdown for me. I would love to see 44 on a coin. A denomination collection is best when self-explanatory. In Norway in the 1600s and early 1700s only big coins were left without denominations. 1/2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 24 skillings were always listed as such. But 1, 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 speciedaler was not. 1 speciedaler was worth 96 skilling at the time, so 1/8 speciedaler and 12 skilling have the same value - but not the same weight. All daler coins including fractions had a higher percentage of silver in them than the skilling coins (the marck coins were somewhere in between). Daler coins were also portrait coins, which none of the others were, so it was not too difficult to tell them apart. The French did not have this problem, if Krause is to be believed, since all the silver coins were 91,7% silver. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3342 Posts |
It's amost impossible to reconstruct coin valuation/naming from on-line sources. However cgb can be a useful reference tool because they supply coin weights. Here is a 44 sol from 1710: http://www.numishop.com/fiche-bry_1...rg_1710.htmlThis coin weighs 12.16 grams, and the previous 1719 specimen I linked shows a weight of 12.19 grams. So there is a consistency for 44 sol pieces issued in that period. Contrast this with high grade demi ecus from 1726 and 1793, which have coin weights of 14.63 and 14.64 grams. If these have 60 sol valuations, a straight weight ratio would value the 1710 and 1719 pieces at 50 sols. This is still higher than 44 sols, but it's closer. There is also no explanation for why the 1710 piece is called a "quarante quatre" and the 1719 piece having equal coin weight a "demi ecu". Hope this helps some. Digging in a little deeper....you can go through these coins year by year. Up to 1717 the ecu appears to have a weight of about 30.5 grams. But for the next 6 years it shifts to the "ecu de navarre" or "ecu de france et navarre" which has a weight of 24 grams. In 1725 it appears to shift down again, to 23.2 grams. And then in 1726 the ecu weight increases back to 29-30 grams. So a 1719 demi ecu was lightweight compared to earlier and later periods, and weighs about the same as a pre 1717 44 sol. This could explain why they carry the same name, and could be confirmed by checking to see if the non-silver coin weights stayed the same in this period. One more quirk: pre 1717 there were 15 gram demi ecus as well as the 12 gram 44's. Throwing in the welter of English/Dutch/Spanish coins circulating at the time, it's hard to imagine any trade taking place without coin scales. The number of French denominations produced over one decade is extraordinary. Litotes, your work is cut out for you. If you want them all it will cost you thousands of euros. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
10/19/2010 10:57 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
I am also a collector of different denominations. I know it is not great, because I should go with what people of the time used, but I use whatever Krause lists as the primary denomination, not something they list in parentheses. I'd love to find a 44, or any other denomination that is really weird. However, you have to have some definition for a collection. By the way Litotes, according to my list I have 64 different denominations (a few are NCLT ones so they're sort of cheats).
What I've got:
1/80
1/48
1/40
1/26
1/24
1/16
1/13
1/12
1/10
1/8
1/6
1/5
2/10
1/4
1/3
1/2
5/10
2/3
1
1 1/4
1 1/2
2
2 1/2
3
4
4 1/2
5
6
6 1/4
7
7 1/2
8
9
10
12
12 1/2
15
16
20
21
25
30
40
50
60
80
100
200
250
300
400
500
1000
2000
2500
5000
10000
25000
50000
100000
200000
250000
500000
750000
Edited by Jays-Dad
10/22/2010 8:13 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2703 Posts |
The early part of eighteenth century was a turbulent time in French coinage. During this period the coinage was demonetized several times and new designs struck over the old ones (reformations) in rapid succession. The French government was trying to manipulate the coinage to turn a net profit and the ecu changed in value with each reformation, varying between 96 to 120 sols.
Also there were special debased types minted for Strausbourg (mint mark BB) at the end of Louis XIV reign and the beginning of Louis XV's reign. These circulated in Alsace and Saar (Sarre) and were produced to facilitate exchange of goods with German States. The 1/2 ecus for Strausbourg, minted under Louis XIV from 1709-1714, are listed in Gadoury at 44 sols, 12.392g, fineness 833%o. During the reformations from 1709-1716 these Louis XIV 1/2 ecus for Strausbourg changed in value from 44, to 48, to 36, and then to 28 sols. The Louis XV 1/2 ecus minted for Strausbourg in 1716 and 1718 are listed Gadoury as 40 sols, although they are stuck over the Louis XIV pieces originally denominated at 44 sols.
The regular issue French 1/2 ecus struck in 1709 were valued at 48 sols, 12.392g, and fineness 917%o. These were also reformed and revalued several times (48-60 sols between 1709-1718). Then finally in 1718 the reformations stopped and new 1/2 ecus with the "de Navarre" design were struck on new planchets with a value of 60 sols.
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Pillar of the Community
Norway
510 Posts |
Quote:
am also a collector of different denominations. I know it is not great, because I should go with what people of the time used, but I use whatever Krause lists as the primary denomination, not something they list in parentheses. I'd love to find a 44, or any other denomination that is really weird. However, you have to have some definition for a collection. By the way Litotes, according to my list I have 64 different denominations (a few are NCLT ones so they're sort of cheats).
Great list, jays-dad!  I have reached 77 myself by the method of accepting whatever can be read on a coin, primary or secondary. If we disregard secondary ones where the primary is also given, I have 72. A couple of these have different names in Krause. I have not singled these out, but they definitely include two of my highlights - the 5 1/32 guilders from Netherlands East Indies lists as half a duit, and the 27 schilling 6 pfennig from Lübeck lists as a thaler (though not in Krause, since they are too old). And of course there are some commemmoratives. Five, by my count. I think we are placed at more or less equal footing, but I can see some differences: A few I have that you should be on the lookout for: 1/96 (rixdollar, from Ceylon) 1/32 (birr, from Ethiopia) 1/15 (speciedaler, from Norway - primary denomination 1795-1802) 1/9 (thaler, from Salzburg) 14 (paisa, from Nepal) 18 (piastres, from Cyprus; or groszy, from Poland) 36 (grote, from Bremen) 960 (reis, from Brazil) I, on the other hand, do not have your 1/13, 9, 21, 80, 2500 or 500000. As a former table tennis player, I would love to have the 21. As a matter of fact I am biddig for one as we speak. Wish me luck Edited by Litotes
10/24/2010 4:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
524 Posts |
Things I learned from Kipling:
In India's sunny clime,
1 Mohur = 15 Rupees
1 Rupee = 16 Annas
1 Anna = 4 Pice
1 Pice = 3 Pies
https://www.brianrxm.comThe Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin Coins in Movies Coins on Television
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Replies: 12 / Views: 4,155 |
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Posted 10/18/2010 3:27 pm
