A Mexico Carlos IIIi 8 Reales Dated 1981!

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 1,523
dosmundos Valued Member Germany 194 Posts	Posted 10/25/2011 06:41 am I found the following entry in the October 1969 Harry Shuhart Sale, and since I have seen the ongoing discussions regarding fake 8 reales, I thought this might be interesting. Of course, I can't provide good pictures, all I can give is a scan of the b&w catalog pic of the late 1960s. The coin, by the way, sold for $50. Report this Post to the Staff

DVCollector Bedrock of the Community United States 10045 Posts	Posted 10/25/2011 8:00 pm Interesting...was that a genuine dating error, or what? Report this Post to the Staff
Archraz Pillar of the Community United States 3499 Posts	Posted 10/25/2011 9:07 pm So in 1969 the author wrote "Was not guaranteed to have been struck in 1981." hahahahaha Report this Post to the Staff
Pandesalapi Valued Member Philippines 386 Posts	Posted 10/26/2011 04:47 am Quote: So in 1969 the author wrote "Was not guaranteed to have been struck in 1981 the book is much more interesting and the one who bought the coin Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 10/27/2011 1:21 pm Dating errors of this type are of course possible BUT the forgeries were often miss dated. The vast majority of incorrectly dated 8Rs are of course counterfeit. The fact that the coin obviously circulated in China makes it likely that this coin could be a "Boston type" issued in the 1870-1900 era. It would be silver and have an edge that was "approximately" correct. So an origin in the Bullion emission is possible given what we know about the coin. I am most convinced that this coin is not a mint error because of the numbers used on the die "1-9-8-1". The reversal of these digits would be 1891 which is no better a combination. (But possibly 1891 is the actual date of manufacture.) The assayer initials are FT which places the correct date for an original of this coin between 1801 and 1803. There would have been no need for a 9 punch to be included in the "working" die setter's tool kit in this interval. These die punches were NOT generally available in full sets to the die sinkers. The punches were guarded and controlled by the managers and it is my understanding that they were signed out and returned when worn or broken. Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 10/27/2011 6:08 pm It has to be a forgery, not an error... Like Bob said, it's would be an error involving TWO digits, which is virtually impossible. From the picture, the detail is pretty good, though "DEI GRATIA" looks a bit "off", perhaps a tad too spread out... Note also that the description mentions a test mark. Do you have the catalog in hand? Can you maybe scan the listing at a higher/larger resolution? The question, of course - whatever source it came from, what's the point of that date if you're trying to pass a fake? I understand the folks in olden times didn't have the same great access to information that we have, but geez, that weren't THAT stupid. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 10/27/2011 7:44 pm Realeswater You said Quote: but geez, they (sic) weren't THAT stupid I beg to differ - but would not call it stupid. The audience was ILLITERATE. Numbers - especially Arabic numbers used in the date could not be read by the average Chinese merchant. That is why so darned many odd dates do appear. I have seen one 2R counterfeit where the date is composed of 4 characters - three of which are just squiggles not even numbers. The average person today seems to think that NUMBERS were ALWAYS well known to the general public - but if you study history you will find that the average person in rural America before 1900 had very little formal education at all. The use of numbers and simple math was often impossible. So an incorrect date would not have caused the kind of "red flag" that it does today. I don't know if you are all aware that modern Chinese forgers often mix dies or alter dates making IMPOSSIBLE coins. I suspect that many of the forgers in China simply do not yet understand western dates. Studying the habits of forgers especially those before 1900 can be very interesting and historically informative. Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 10/27/2011 8:47 pm Yes, illiteracy and lack of education obviously were much more prevalent... but how many adults really were SO uneducated/unsophisticated that they couldn't even recognize the digits that made up the year? If you had ANY ability to recognize writing (and a lot of people couldn't actually write, but COULD read to at least a rudimentary degree), just about the first thing you learn is what digits are. Also, nearly all coinage of the time was clearly dated... I think almost anyone could recognize something was wrong with "1 8 9 1". I think the only people that were getting fooled by that piece were the gr-gr-gr-gr-grandparents of the people who were buying 1906 Seated Liberty dollars from China in 2003. When I see the odd dates and especially nonsense legends, I tend to think it was done for the same reason as with the Evasion British halfpennies - protection from prosecution... "That's not counterfeit coinage... see, the writing isn't the same". Report this Post to the Staff
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