ICCS - Coins Damaged From Improper Cleaning.

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canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 11/19/2011 7:11 pm I suspect these coins are damaged from improper dipping or cleaning. I've bought a few of these, labeled ok by ICCS, cut them out of their flips and examined them under the microscope. You could tell they'd been cleaned but either improperly rinsed, or in parts, the coin metal didn't react well with the dipping solution. These are the white blotches in the fields. Sadly..this is one of the areas where ICCS completely fails the collecting community...these coins would be body-bagged by PCGS, NGC and ICG, as they should be. The damage spots in the fields look the same on all these coins...you also get this light brown haze on the edges, where the dipping solution didn't quite get all the toning.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canada-1858...em27bdb047ea http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canada-1881...em27bdb04dd1 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canada-1913...em27bdb22109 Edited by canadian-varieties 11/19/2011 7:13 pm Report this Post to the Staff

goldfinger Valued Member United States 73 Posts	Posted 11/19/2011 9:53 pm You suspect the certification is wrong? You probably shouldnt bid then. I cant see the problem? Report this Post to the Staff
Smallcentguy Pillar of the Community Canada 1984 Posts	Posted 11/19/2011 10:35 pm I don't focus on silver much.....what would happen if this was redipped? Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 11/20/2011 01:32 am Dipping solutions have their limits. Once dipped, I dont see re-dipping being able to improve/change the previous outcome. At this stage, you have to go harsher...eg. a sulfuric acid based compound like Tarn-X... Report this Post to the Staff
wireman09 Pillar of the Community Canada 972 Posts	Posted 11/21/2011 05:57 am I recently bought a MS 1954 Silver Dollar that was ICCS graded. The coin was harshly cleaned as in polished. There was no acknowledgement of it being polished on the flip. If it was PCGS graded it would have said cleaned with unc. details. I wouldn't have even looked at the coin then. I think ICCS may be reluctant to down grade coins of some dealers, for fear they may send their coins to other coin graders. It's business and they don't want to lose there customers. Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 11/24/2011 01:15 am Which makes ICCS extremely dangerous to new collectors, especially. Report this Post to the Staff
guppie1160 Valued Member Canada 307 Posts	Posted 11/28/2011 3:07 pm Quote: I don't focus on silver much.....what would happen if this was redipped? If you re dip and rince really well under running water then allow to dry it will remove all dip errors.... Report this Post to the Staff
54dollarcoin Valued Member Canada 475 Posts	Posted 11/29/2011 12:07 am way too freaky over ICCS , Danloss . I have been at this well over 40 years and can tell you that PCGS and the US graders have their own problems. ICCS has and continues to be of service to the Canadian collector. Many of us as dealers have supported Brian from the beginning and indeed have made good money off of their service. As to PCGS and NGC a lot of the Canadian stuff they have graded over the years is just plain laughable.! Bottom line is if you do not like ICCS and their grading philosophy or packaging just do not use them! You have that right. Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 11/29/2011 10:37 am I know a lot of you guys have made a lot of money peddling cleaned and retoned, heck even poorly cleaned and damaged coins, certified as ok by ICCS, to unsuspecting new collectors. I have a nice collection of these myself, from "highly respected" Canadian dealers :)...although I have to admit, I'm quite certain you guys peddle this stuff only online, or during TCNC auctions, so you dont have to look the buyer in the eye as you are conning them (speaking in general terms of course). And then you wonder why the Canadian coin market is in the bad shape it's in. "ICCS has and continues to be of service to the Canadian collector". You should rephrase that as "continues to be of service to the criminally corrupt Canadian dealer" It sure does nothing for the collector. Inconsistent grading, certifies damaged coins as ok, poor quality holders, poor service, no website, unreachable by phone, the list goes on... You're right, it will be a cold day in.... before I send a coin to ICCS. I've already sent hundreds to CCCS, PCGS and even ICG. I just bought a 1892 50 cent PCGS AU50 beauty on ebay for $1400. I would NEVER buy an equivalent ICCS coin for that much - the odds that it would be damaged would simply be too high. The risks of buying an ICCS coin without seeing it in hand are extremely high. And I've paid good $$$ to find out. When I first entered the Canadian coin market 6 months ago, I bought some $1500-$2000 ICCS coins from some well known Canadian dealers. 1 out of 3 came body bagged by PCGS. Cleaned, PVC, environmental damage, you name it, ICCS didn't call it. Neither did the dealers. Coins looked great, until I took some chemicals to them and quickly realized what had been done...I must say, a lot of effort had been put into hiding the damage in some cases. Nevertheless, in hand, you could tell. And living in the middle of nowhere, I simply dont have the luxury of seeing every coin "in hand" before I buy it. So you guys have a good laugh selling your damaged ICCS warez to guys like me. Brian's great! Look at the garbage I'm able to sell! Good for you. Enjoy your karma. ICCS will get theirs. I'd like to hear about the "PCGS and US graders have their own problems". Maybe they overgrade by 5, even 10 points. But they sure as heck wont sell you a damaged coin labeled as "A OK". Edited by canadian-varieties 11/29/2011 10:49 am Report this Post to the Staff
glenzy1 Pillar of the Community Canada 1554 Posts	Posted 11/29/2011 11:08 am Danlos, if you are sooo anti- I.C.C.S., then why did you recently purchase an I.C.C.S. coin on E-bay for nearly $300.00? ebay auction :(# 320791001977) Glenn Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 11/29/2011 11:18 am I bought it to free it from its ICCS shackles :)...its on its way to Louis at CCCS for a nice HARD SLAB ;) You see Glenn...there is some good that has come out of all this... You should see my collection of "cut out" ICCS flips ;) I suspect many have done the same. Funny thing about the ICCS population report. I bet you 90% of the high end coins in that report "no longer reside" in ICCS flips Edited by canadian-varieties 11/29/2011 11:24 am Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 11/29/2011 11:38 am I should also put a disclaimer...that my terrible experience with ICCS is limited to Victorian and Edward era coins... perhaps Brian of ICCS thinks: "Man, this coin survived 150 years...who cares if it's been scrubbed with a brillo pad?"... The survival rate of these coins is very low to begin with, so perhaps harsh cleaning, tooling, scratches, PVC damage, environmental damage are deemed OK...heck, you should be happy this coin escaped the melt! "Here, let me grade it for you, we'll just ignore the rest." If those are the ICCS standards, then I understand ... Edited by canadian-varieties 11/29/2011 11:39 am Report this Post to the Staff
fredor Valued Member Canada 142 Posts	Posted 11/29/2011 10:14 pm I'm sorry Danlos, but 5 or 10 points is an immense understatement. People should look at these coins and feel embarrassment for PCGS. This is shameful to the point of wondering if all these coins are made in china and placed in fake holders. http://www.ebay.com/itm/C-USA-1896-..._2187wt_1163 http://www.ebay.com/itm/C-USA-1885-..._2191wt_1163 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1873-N...t_500wt_1156 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1874-NEWFOU...t_535wt_1396 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Newfoundlan...t_500wt_1180 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Newfoundlan..._1177wt_1396 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Newfoundlan..._1645wt_1396 I agree that ICCS is terrible, unless you have extremely good pictures on ebay it's like gambling. Sometimes you get an immense payoff but often you will get burned. PCGS is just not an option for me. I would never buy any coin without seeing clear concise pictures graded or ungraded. That's how little faith I have in grading companies. In fact I stay away from grading companies unless I need to sell in which I regrettably must put up with ICCS to get the best dollar for my coins. I can't wait until that changes though. Grading companies I find are run by people who live in the past. There are so many simple ways to fix things it just boggles my mind that grading companies don't get with the 21st century. An example: Every coin that comes in MUST under all circumstances be photographed and put online with the corresponding item codes. Every single holder should have a QR code on it. You scan the QR code with your smart phone and it launches the grading companies website with the corresponding pictures to match the coin. If it doesn't match, congrats you are looking at a fake coin. This is not an idea that takes a lot of work. This is simple. All in all people shouldn't be too hard on danlos, if you look at his selling history he has A LOT of CCCS coins up for sale. Which is great to support them. I hate PCGS but it doesn't stop me from buying a coin from them. Although it does suck when stupid people are bidding based on the grade PCGS assigns when it is clearly not close to that grade. I would definitely bid on your newfie coins danlos if you did auction style bidding! Report this Post to the Staff
DBM Pillar of the Community Canada 9868 Posts	Posted 11/29/2011 11:09 pm That's an eye opener,every one those coins is overgraded,and by 5-15 points,I thought they were supposed to be getting better at this. Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 11/29/2011 11:29 pm I agree fedor...Newfoundland coins give ICCS and PCGS a tremendous amount of trouble. What's worse? A VF30 harshly cleaned ICCS coin that's been re-toned, or a PCGS EF40 that's really a VF30? Collecting NFLDs...you have to be careful with ICCS or PCGS...to be honest..I dont think there is a good TPG for NFLDs I started collecting them...then stopped immediately, when I realized, I could not rely on buying them online safely... Edited by canadian-varieties 11/29/2011 11:34 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Colhand1 Pillar of the Community United States 629 Posts	Posted 11/30/2011 11:50 am When you do cut them out of the holder, do you let ICCS (or other TPG's) know so they can take it out of their population reports? It would only seem fair to the hobby to do this. Report this Post to the Staff
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