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 Replies: 12 / Views: 1,519 |
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Valued Member
United States
59 Posts |
I apologize to those who thought that my casting aspersions on the grading companies and the graders was uncalled for. But my business, which is the paintings business is rife with corruption when it comes to buying on the secondary market. Admittedly, I have no idea how the incentives line up for these grading companies. But I will admit to being a bit of a skeptic when it comes to human behavior as it relates to economics.
I know it is a bit cheeky,(as us Brits say, but I went a few months back to a gathering of numismatic experts with a folder of coins. I fained innocence, and I was absolutely shocked at what was said to me. I saw 2 chaps at different times. they both flipped through pages in the blue book, low balled my best coins, and offered a relative pitence for all the rest the rest. I understand that the thing was a commercial enterprise...but when it comes to commerce, and I presume all Grading in one way or another is for commercial purposes.. mmmm.
Really, is the process transparent? I have read what the companies say is the process ..I can imagine this forum may have a few people who have seen this upfront and personal.
As a side bar. I really do hope I am not being offensive by having this discussion. If so I will decease and desist.
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Valued Member
United States
320 Posts |
cease and desist if you must, but please don't decease on our account!  Here's a question though-- when you took the coins in for evaluation, were they raw or graded? Reason I ask is because one could argue that the grading phenomenon helps sellers as much as anything. Reason being it transforms the selling experience from one of "gosh I don't know what I have" or perhaps of knowing what coin you have but then having the dealer improperly tell you they're cleaned or substandard to one of "I have an xyz in ms-66, which I can look up at any number of sites on the internet and get an approximate value" the way I see it, grading puts a marginally-informed seller in a relatively stronger position, and it puts the buyer at ease that it is not counterfeit. As to the transparency, I have only submitted one coin so I am not well-suited to answer that question. I too know human nature and know that the temptation will be there to manipulate the system for one's own gain. I was quite nervous about it, thinking how easy it would be to swap out a lesser coin for mine or other such shenanigans-- but it turned out just fine and the forum consensus is that the grade was accurate. (I took pictures prior to sending it in). edit: what's this have to do with toning, again? Edited by Secret Argent Man
12/07/2011 2:40 pm
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Valued Member
 United States
59 Posts |
Thanks Secret Argent,(witty),
I was continuing a conversation from my previous topic. The topic started with talk of grading and Toning. I do wholeheartedly accept the need to grade, I just think the cleaning thing,
(unless brutal) is a bit of a crock. My own piece was graded and slabbed as cleaned..although the wonderful folks on this forum agreed that it was,(before graded) a pretty dam good coin. I would have loved to have gotten a grade.. together with the 'cleaned' proviso attached. It was not pre slabbed. I have been doing some research here and there, only to find that coins are often submitted over and over until a satisfactory grade is achieved ( ..is that not dispiriting in terms of an objective standard?
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Valued Member
United States
59 Posts |
secret argent man.. I meant to say Slabbed.. but not graded.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Consider the incentives involved, to the grading company. They have your money whether they offer a righteous grade, or a "bodybag" grade (the term I'll use to globally describe everything else). Any knowledgeable numismatist knows that the varying things leading to a bodybag are sometimes quite subtle, and it's a near universally-shared opinion that any coin which is other than perfectly original is worth significantly less than it might otherwise be. Now is where we start winking and nodding at each other, because this is a business in which objectivity essentially has no place. It's my considered opinion that a sufficient level of experience and education would render these judgements with relative accuracy, but such doesn't always exist even among the experts. Since the TPG stakes its' reputation on its' grade, and since the subjective difference between a righteous coin and a bodybag one could amount to thousands of dollars, and since even those of an august numismatic reputation could possibly call a coin "bodybag" when it is not, you may expect the TPG's to always err on the side of caution. The alternative is to surrender reputation at best, and significant money making good their guarantee at worst. Toning is less-subjective than is commonly held, and aspects of cleaning are almost not subjective at all. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3540 Posts |
The problem with TPG's....they are driven by money as well. Google "Omaha Hoard" - the bulk of these coins do NOT deserve the grades given. Human error is one thing...but most, if not all, of the TPG's, use three seperate graders. Maybe if they included the grading sheets...at least the collecting community might see why X coin deserves the grade. |
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Valued Member
United States
118 Posts |
All these responses are correct to the question.But still like always money is envolved inthe turn out.High volume dealers usually always win.
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Valued Member
United States
59 Posts |
I am not saying, that I believe that the individual numismatists are corrupt. I am more than certain that people take great pride in their hard won professional skills, I certainly do in my area of endeavor. It is just that in any human enterprise, I believe there is an inexorable tendency over time to slacken, take shortcuts, to get along. What are the constraints on this process of entropy in the grading world. Are there institutional checks I wonder?
Added to this is the physical superficiality of the surface involved. Here is what I want to understand.
Take antique guns or furniture for example. If you re-surface the wood the gun loses value..understood. If you polish the wood or dust it or buff it.. does anyone know if that would amount to the same thing as stripping it and refinishing it? Does anyone know if polishing the metal parts would devalue the gun? (I guess that would be the same thing as cleaning a coin) Does anyone know this area? do guns get graded in a similar way?
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Valued Member
United States
59 Posts |
I just saw SuperDave's coin display. those chocolate colored coins look almost edible. warm and glossy too. That is a different order of depth than the stained modern silver I actually had in mind.
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Alex- Quote:
I have been doing some research here and there, only to find that coins are often submitted over and over until a satisfactory grade is achieved ( ..is that not dispiriting in terms of an objective standard? You've found the problem. Standards don't change. The TPGs admit that they market grade as opposed to grading to standards. Market grading is another term for pricing. This is such a nice au58 it should bring ms63 money, so that's what it gets slobbed at. So now you have ms63 coins and au58 coins in ms63 plastic. Ultimately, that means all slobbed ms63s become worth au58 money, because that may be all they are. It used to be that blast white coins were preferred, and many nicely toned coins were dipped. Now, toned coins rule the roost. So we take a toned au58 that used to be slobbed au53, and crack it out and get today's ms63 slab. So what is it? It's au58 (add comments about toning), and the slab should show that. Then it's up to the buyer and seller to decide how much that toning adds or subtracts from the base au58 value. That pretty much blows the concept of being able to trade coins sight unseen, the original argument for slobbing coins. One highly respected dealer once said there is no such thing as a $20 Saint without rub on the knee. Rub, or cabinet friction, is another word for wear. If his observation is correct, there should be no such thing as a ms saint. Yet they list ms65 and even higher. What happens when they find a ms65 without knee rub? Call it ms68 to distinguish it from all the circulated ms65s? See what happens when you ignore standards? |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote:
Take antique guns or furniture for example. If you re-surface the wood the gun loses value..understood. If you polish the wood or dust it or buff it.. does anyone know if that would amount to the same thing as stripping it and refinishing it? Does anyone know if polishing the metal parts would devalue the gun? (I guess that would be the same thing as cleaning a coin) Does anyone know this area? do guns get graded in a similar way?
Yes and no. Almost all old or antiqued furnature is supposed to be original. BUT in many instances some damage can be repaired by experts and actually increase the value. Same with numerous items such as rugs, tapestries and even clothing. Guns too can loose value by cleaning or polishing the original wood of a stock. Yet contrary to that too is a damaged barrel could be restored and greatly improve the guns value. It is almost impossible to know, even by many so called experts, if a non numbered internal part has been replaced too. Thereby a reconstructed antique gun could be sold as all original and no one would know nor care. Coins and/or even stamps do not have hidden parts to fix. Nor do they have easy methods of reconstruction without recognition. Thus making determinations of grading and verifications of most coins much easier. |
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Valued Member
United States
59 Posts |
Very interesting response. Thanks
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
It is just that in any human enterprise, I believe there is an inexorable tendency over time to slacken, take shortcuts, to get along. What are the constraints on this process of entropy in the grading world. Are there institutional checks I wonder? You are seeing things with crystal clarity. The only checks in the world of numismatics are the wallets of the buyers; hence, the incentive to err on the side of caution. A non-sale beats the heck of a sale which blows your reputation and dents your wallet. |
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Replies: 12 / Views: 1,519 |
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Posted 12/07/2011 3:30 pm
