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Basic Ancient Coin Questions.

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Gil-galad's Avatar
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2044 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2011  3:24 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I am going to ask some basic questions that I don't understand or haven't ran into the right answer yet. Although, I have spent a great deal of time reading and studying on my own merit. Perhaps I am a beginning student?

.1)

If my collection strategy is collecting at least one person each for Roman Imperial coins, including emperors, Caesars, women, etc. Can Roman provincial coins also be counted for a particular person?


2.)

How far into the eastern Roman Empire should I collect that does not go into official Byzantium era? There is this chart at http://www.dirtyoldcoins.com/roman/timeline.htm . The first emperor is Arcadius and the last before the "official" change to Byzantium is Anastasius. I mainly only want to collect where the coins have a RIC or similar catalogue ID, that are not Byzantine.

3.)

Can someone describe "fabric" to me. It's been fully described but it is not sinking in. When I think of "fabric" I think of cloth. Is it texture, thickness of the flan? ETC?

4.)

There are several different metal types of coins, the main one being AE, copper alloys, apparently. There are also NI, PB and EL. Who makes coins out of Nickel, Electrum and Lead? I haven't recalled seeing any.

BI or billon is copper silver alloy?

5.)

Why do Roman Imperial coins and other coins have a different measurement system? Like AE 1-4 range for Imperials and AE mm measurement range for provincial and other coins.

6.)

What are some other affordable ancient coins to collect besides Roman Imperial, Greek and Byzantines? When I mean affordable, I mean being able to find decent coins from $5 - $20 range like you can with either of the former. And also having a great variety.

Not interested in ancient Chinese coins though. I saw a lot of affordable coins from there.

Not really interested in Islamic coins either.

And no medieval coins either.

7.)

How accurate is the rarity scale at Dirty Old Coins for Roman Imperial coins?




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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16867 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2011  5:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If my collection strategy is collecting at least one person each for Roman Imperial coins, including emperors, Caesars, women, etc. Can Roman provincial coins also be counted for a particular person?

It's basically up to you. If you want a "purely Roman Imperial" collection, then no, but if your collection is focussed on the emperors themselves, then sure, why not? It certainly makes things easier for several emperors who struck few "Roman" coins but quite a lot of "Provincials".

Quote:
How far into the eastern Roman Empire should I collect that does not go into official Byzantium era? There is this chart at http://www.dirtyoldcoins.com/roman/timeline.htm . The first emperor is Arcadius and the last before the "official" change to Byzantium is Anastasius. I mainly only want to collect where the coins have a RIC or similar catalogue ID, that are not Byzantine.

The Romans never woke up one day and said, "Lets change our name to the Byzantine Empire". From their perspective, the Empire that fell to the Ottoman Turks was the same Empire that was founded by Augustus. So in that sense, there is no "official" Roman/Byzantine boundary; any such boundary has to be drawn by later historians.

The "Byzantine" coin series is generally considered to begin with the coinage reform of Anastasius I that initiated the distinctive early Byzantine copper coins; for that reason, we numismatists consider Anastasius I the "first Byzantine emperor". But if you look at, say, the gold coinage, there is no clear break or division in the series at that point.

Quote:
Can someone describe "fabric" to me. It's been fully described but it is not sinking in. When I think of "fabric" I think of cloth. Is it texture, thickness of the flan? ETC?

"Fabric" derives from an old French word for "craft" or "manufacture", and this it is in this context the word is used. It refers to the overall appearance of the coin as caused by it's method of manufacture - a combination of die artistry, planchet production and method of striking.

Quote:
There are several different metal types of coins, the main one being AE, copper alloys, apparently. There are also NI, PB and EL. Who makes coins out of Nickel, Electrum and Lead? I haven't recalled seeing any.

BI or billon is copper silver alloy?

Traditionally, "AE" refers to any kind of base-metal, but often cataloguers want to be a bit more specific if the composition of the base-metal is known. Your guesses as to the interpretation seem reasonable to me.

Nickel was not discovered scientifically until the 1700s, but copper ore naturally high in nickel would produce a natural cupronickel alloy, not too dissimilar to the composition of the US 5 cent piece, which certain ancient societies found useful in making pseudo-silver objects, including coinage. The Chinese called it "white copper", and the Bactrians made coins out of it.

"Billon" is debased silver - usually debased with copper, but lead and tin could also be used. The term is usually used for alloys of less than 50% silver content; such alloys usually no longer look "silvery" after just a brief time in circulation.

Quote:
Why do Roman Imperial coins and other coins have a different measurement system? Like AE 1-4 range for Imperials and AE mm measurement range for provincial and other coins.

The short answer is, "tradition". Back in Renaissance times when the modern concept of coin collecting began, all coins whose identities were unknown or ambiguous were described on a somewhat arbitrary scale. The Late Roman Bronze scale is the only one still in common use.

Quote:
What are some other affordable ancient coins to collect besides Roman Imperial, Greek and Byzantines? When I mean affordable, I mean being able to find decent coins from $5 - $20 range like you can with either of the former. And also having a great variety.

Not interested in ancient Chinese coins though. I saw a lot of affordable coins from there.

Not really interested in Islamic coins either.

And no medieval coins either.

You've pretty much ruled everybody else out, there.

You might find some Celtic in that price range, but they're usually pricier; you might only be able to afford unidentifiable lumps. Some of the Indian series might also be of interest, though you'll find there's not too much "variety".

Quote:
How accurate is the rarity scale at Dirty Old Coins for Roman Imperial coins?

You mean this scale? It seems to be reasonably accurate, in a general sort of way.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2011  5:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Man I really hate my internet, I lost my first reply to you so I have to retype again.

I try and answer some of your questions.

1. Yes, Thought others might disagree.

2. When the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 AD the last Roman emperor was Romulus Augustus. So that would be a stopping point, though finding any of these late emperors will be very difficult without spending big money.

3. I understand fabric to mean the type of metal the coin is made from.

4. Roman coins used only three types of metals, The base metals are the AE's Bronze, copper, brass. than AR, silver, and lastly AV, gold. The quality of the metals changed over differnt time periods.

EL, Electrum was mostly used on early Greek coins, Ni, I have not heard of any coin made from nickel, Lead was used mostly for seals and for test of new coins before they went into production.

Billon a mixture of base metals and silver, are mostly seen in the later periods. Constantine I issued a series of billon coins the argentus. Billon was also used durning the Byzantine period on trachy.

5.We really don't know the value of the later base metal empire coins but they came in large and small coins. to classify them they were assigned AE1-AE4
AE1 25mm and up
AE2 21mm to 25mm
AE3 17mm to 21mm
AE4 less than 17mm

6. I dn't know of any others.

7. It's as accurate as any other that you may come across.
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Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2011  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have been collecting for a long time now and I find most of the answers to your questions to be useful. I know its a cliche, but I don't believe there are any dumb questions. If you don't know the answers, then it is reasonable to conclude that others will not know the answer either. So from me, thank you for asking the questions. And thanks to SAP and echizento for providing answers.
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Max L's Avatar
Canada
258 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2011  7:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Max L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to everyone for the questions and answers. I learned some useful information by reading these posts!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1549 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2011  01:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap did a good job with your questions. I'll just ad a link to my 'Fabric' page because I consider fabric to be a very interesting and important topic. Those who understand fabric buy fewer fakes.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/do.../fabric.html

Nickels are nice but not common.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/do...ac58bak.html

There are few lead coins that you will find interesting and they tend to survive in poor shape. Many are Indian like the Ikshvakus from the third century AD.



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Gil-galad's Avatar
United States
2044 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2011  10:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks a lot for all the answers. I was hoping that these questions were not stupid. lol

As far as fabric and fakes are concerned. I have noticed a few fakes out there already and I compared several labeled replicas to what looked like real coins to me to get a good idea what the difference was.

I have read your article about fabric and I was confused about it. Even though I understood a good deal on the page.

That's interesting about those nickel coins.

Some people might disagree but I think it would be better now days to convert or change the measurement system over to millimeter measurement range. I have seen a few AE 2/3 and AE 3/4 coins while looking around.

When you have coins for AE 2/3 that measure 21mm. That means a coin falls in both categories based on this table posted earlier?

AE1 25mm and up
AE2 21mm to 25mm
AE3 17mm to 21mm
AE4 less than 17mm


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Gil-galad's Avatar
United States
2044 Posts
 Posted 12/14/2011  2:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have some more questions that I hope ain't ridiculous.

I was reading up about Renaissance Wax, now that I have a little bit to use, thanks to JW. Apparently, a lot of people that purchased a full can of it did not receive directions for usage. So, I am wondering exactly how to use it.

1.)

Do you have to clean a coin first before applying the wax?

2.)

Is applying the wax with a Q-Tip and then rubbing with a non-abrasive cotton cloth suitable or the right way to do it?

3.)

Is there any instance where I should not use the wax? I have read that the wax affects sand patinas.


Now for some other questions about cleaning in distilled water.

1.)

Can you heat up distilled water in a microwave or pan over a stove and not affect the chloride removing properties?

2.)

If you use dish detergent in distilled water. Does this affect the distilled properties of the water to where it isn't good for coins?


I'm planning on purchasing a coin that looks like it has bronze disease. I am purchasing it for the purpose of learning how to treat it.

1.)

Is letting is soak in distilled water for a certain amount of time (how long?) and then baking it under 200F and then picking out the disease the way to do it? And then applying some Renaissance Wax.


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