Sheffield Plate 8 I Hope

some more pics

Thank You Larryh86GT For the heads up

What I am shopping for is a high Quality contemporary counterfeit
and wondering which of these is the best choice I think we can eliminate the dateless one. The 1806 might be solid silver but the 17? something looks like rolled plate that has come off in strips and is perfect for my use.

Good choice of contemporary counterfeit to START collecting as a book on these is in progress and will be published in 2013/2014 time period by several noted authors. Your best choice is the 179X (i.e., last date not readable based on your pic). PCGS and NGC will also have a hard time as time moves forward since many AU and UNC now slabbed are actually Sheffields of this type. Sheffields have a confirmed silver regal level (i.e., ~90.0+ Ag) outer plating and generally of a XRF confirmed copper or brass alloy inner core. These are the finest executed contemporary counterfeits produced prior to 1900 in the WORLD in my opinion. They were produced in Birmingham, England when England was in war with Spain and were produced following the same intent and scenario the Nazi's did in WWII with English paper money. This is why so many reside now in PCGS and NGC slabs. Ever notice copper colored or leached copper AU/UNC's? Most Sheffields when they deterioate have this EXACT effect as you see now - this PEELING away phenomenon. This is not a coin to shy away from as this one collector has indicated - on the contrary Sir - this is a coin to cherish as a contemporary counterfeit GEM of GEMS and one of the soon to be most marvelous creations in ths entire history of World Numismatics. This is what advanced collecting is all about ...

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States

Seems original - not sure if you know those marks on the 1806 portrait are Chinese chopmarks. They can actually be translated and have meanings like "Good Luck", "Work Hard", etc . ... they also denote certain merchant marks when this piece circulated in China ... if you meet someone who can translate these marks we get the same answer - these marks here and here do not translate to anything ... so these are the merchant marks. This generally adds to the 1806 value and not subtracts from the value (i.e., the overall presence of Chinese chopmarks.

JPL

Yes - your BEGINNING to understand <VBG>. Unfortunately it has also passed into many PCGS and NGC slabs for the higher preserved examples. Not to worry - I will handle this crowd in about 2 years <VVBG>.

Larry - No - but close - this is actually my posting and I will try to explain why its not a True CC8R Sheffield ... but agian - it's close ... I am actually working with swamperbob and other individuals on his new book and handling the XRF analyses and CC8R descriptions of the pieces going into the new book ... having said that this is not a true Sheffield but still a good CC8R counterfeit. Sheffield is just that ... an outer core of regal level silver say ~91%-92% as they did in Birmingham with the ware sold to the common people of the time over an invaluable base metal such as copper or brass. The silver on the outer area here is low so its debased silver but over a base alloy like a Sheffield (here copper/iron). Sheffields in general the regal level silver will start to peel away from the surface showing the underlying base copper or base alloy as in this listing. Again I do not call a CC8R a Sheffield unless the silver is >90% from surface analysis. After the book comes out you will be able to plate match the CC8R counterfeits in the book to NGC/PCGS slab pieces in high states of preservation. Why will this be the preferred method? Generally MS 8R Sheffields will probably not show signs of peeling from my current observations - in a slab you may see copper leaching or specimens with severe copper toning coming through the silver. I am not saying that all copper oxide (red or green heavily toned) MS 8R slabs are Sheffield but this would certainly be a good indicator. If you do see this heavy toning with a peeling surface then - Case Closed- its a Sheffield CC8R. Now that you know who I am follow me on this Internet-Channel as I will be posting both regals and CC8Rs for your review. As with contemporary counterfeits of any world issue it takes time and hands-on learning- the new book will expedite this process in this fascinating field and in this particular series.

John Lorenzo
United States

There can be other types like this piece but we needed (i.e., authors of this book) to "draw the line" somewhere on a Sheffield CC8R and a debased silver alloy CC8R. So a debased silver alloy can be just a mix of say silver/copper/zinc/lead with silver anywhere from say 20-85% or it could be a debased silver plated specimen over a base alloy. As I mentioned before normally we see copper but recently we have seen copper, copper/iron, copper/zinc as the base alloy underlying the high % silver on these Sheffields. Why these are so dangerous is that these were made at The Royal Mint (Birmingham) with high quality die making tools and their state of the art coin making technology. England was at war with Spain so they made the Sheffields to flood the Spanish market with these incredibly made counterfeits as the Nazi's did with English Paper Money during WWII. We actually have documented evidence for this on Spanish Escudos made in England with the same alloy types as these Portrait 8Rs. As I stated I believe they are the best made contemporaries in the world prior to 1900. For this reason we see them in PCGS/NGC holders. Recently I received a commemorative type package from the U.S. Mint celebrating some event with a 8R. Yes you guessed it - a CC8R Sheffield. From the E-Bay pics ... so I took a chance ... it was verified in hand <BG>.

John Lorenzo
United States