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1934 $1000 FRN (F-2211j)

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Ralph's Avatar
United States
1582 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  1:31 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Ralph to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Had this one for awhile now, and I'm still having some trouble grading it because I'm still pretty new to the world of paper money.

It shows signs of circulation - fold lines, scuff at top center (obverse), discoloration, and about a dozen pin holes scattered throughout the surface. With all that in mind, what grade would you assign it if it were your's?

Oh.....not a really, really low serial number, but I think it's kind of cool, how about you?

1934-$1000-FRN-F-2211j
1934-$1000-FRN-F-2211j
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kookoox10's Avatar
United States
1054 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  1:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kookoox10 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a great note to have regardless. Without the pinholes, it would normally grade a Fine, maybe a long shot to VF. The pinholes might drop it to VG. I personally wouldn't grade it as it won't make a ton of difference if I were to sell it.
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The Bill Collector's Avatar
United States
486 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  2:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The Bill Collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


1934-$1000-FRN-F-2211j

1934-$1000-FRN-F-2211j
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The Bill Collector's Avatar
United States
486 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  2:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The Bill Collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If PCGS can grade the above $ 20. note as VF I would say your $ 1000. would grade at least XF or maybe even AU by their standards.
The Bill Collector
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Ralph's Avatar
United States
1582 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ralph to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow! Very Fine 20 Apparent - and, what does Apparent mean in regards to the grade?
Rest in Peace
dave700x's Avatar
United States
10625 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Shouldn't that $20 be a body bag note from PCGS or do they treat notes different than coins?
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Ralph's Avatar
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1582 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  3:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ralph to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No intention of selling it kookoox10 - just trying to be as accurate as I can, and to learn the little ins and outs of grading paper money - not a better place in cyberspace to learn from some very knowledgable members than Coin Community Forum.
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The Bill Collector's Avatar
United States
486 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  3:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The Bill Collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Wow! Very Fine 20 Apparent - and, what does Apparent mean in regards to the grade?"

The only thing Apparent to me is that they did not know how to grade it is so just called it VF ?. Unbelievable.

Very good reason to learn to grade for yourself. I would not want a note like that in my collection, and I would never pay to have a note like that graded.

I would much sooner take the money it cost to grade a note and buy a nicer note.
The Bill Collector.
Edited by The Bill Collector
01/18/2012 4:04 pm
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kookoox10's Avatar
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1054 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kookoox10 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I could imagine PCGS's terminology of "apparent" is on par with "genuine" or "improperly cleaned" with their coin grading service. I have numerous large FRN's and silver certs that are VF and XF with a light fold here and there, no tears, a little staining.
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The Bill Collector's Avatar
United States
486 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The Bill Collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To me it's apparent that they don't have very good standards for grading Paper Money if you have some PCGS FRN's in VF condition and they look better than that
$ 20., it's also apparent that someone at PCGS needs glasses.

Imagine someone buying a note like that from a mail order list without seeing it, ( for you younger guys that's the way it was done before the age of computers ) paying the VF price for it because the seller said it was "professionally graded" by PCGS as VF, how many would be happy with what they received vs. what they paid for ?.

And it's not the first time notes like that have been graded way higher than they should be.
The Bill Collector
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Ralph's Avatar
United States
1582 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2012  4:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ralph to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All puns aside guys, I still don't know what the "Apparent" means on the holder. I've no doubt it says something about the bill, otherwise the grading company wouldn't have included it in the description, but I have no idea what, nor do I know where to go (other than here) to find out. Can someone please enlighten me so I'll know the meaning should I consider buying a graded bill in the future, and it has that designation on the holder. Thank you.
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The Bill Collector's Avatar
United States
486 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2012  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The Bill Collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ralph,
I have no idea what it really means, as far as I know it's not used by any of the other "professional" TPG's that I know of, but I don't have much faith in them, especially after seeing that bill. It has taken me just over two years to learn how to grade my own Paper Money, to where I feel I can grade at least as good as most dealers, it was fun and a very good learning experience. After seeing the way some of "professionals" grade I have no use for them.

The only thing I can say is to go to the PCGS web site and ask them what the mean by "Apparent", like I've said, I don't know of anyone using that term in grading other than PCGS.

One thing I can tell you for sure, no one can grade Paper Money from a photo, most times they wont even come close, if the do come close it was just luck. You really have to get it in your hands to grade it.
Regards
The Bill Collector
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D0ubl3Eagle's Avatar
United States
5854 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2012  5:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the apparent grade is similar to the details grade when it comes to coins. All it means is that they they think it would received such and such a grade but because there is at least one problem, it cannot be put into a problem free holder. The note doesn't have to be pretty as this one is a good example of.

Rest in Peace
dave700x's Avatar
United States
10625 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2012  9:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So apparently this bill would grade VF20 if not for the stains, rips, tears, pin holes and the burned corner that has been taped?
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The Bill Collector's Avatar
United States
486 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2012  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The Bill Collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"So apparently this bill would grade VF20 if not for the stains, rips, tears, pin holes and the burned corner that has been taped ?"


Dave,
If that were the case then all bills would grade better if they had no stains, rips, tears, pin holes and the burned corner that has been taped. No way would I grade that bill as VF. Check out this $ 1000. that they are grading as Fine, to my eyes it looks better than the VF $ 20. but I still would not grade it as Fine, it's a mess and to far gone for that high a grade, I'm a firm believer that you cant really grade a note just by looking at a photo, to really give it an honest grade you have to have it in your hands, but these notes are ridiculous.
The Bill Collector

1934-$1000-FRN-F-2211j
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Ralph's Avatar
United States
1582 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2012  10:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ralph to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okay guys, I googled up PCGS Currency, and found the answer to my question - sharing it with y'all. -
"Notes that have major faults such as tears, splits, holes, missing pieces or have been subject to major restoration, such as repaired tears or splits, redrawing of the design, bleaching of the paper, or even reconstruction of missing pieces, will be assigned a "problem note" designation. Such problems will be noted on the grading label. In these cases we will assign an "Apparent" grade followed by a brief and concise description of the problems or repairs. The "Apparent" grade will equate to what the note would have graded without the mentioned problems. For example, "Apparent VF30, bleached and starched" might be a description of a problem note, as might "Apparent XF45, upper-right corner restored". No net grade will be given."
So.....to me, a graded bill with "Apparent" on the holder should be avoided unless it is a very rare issue. Do you agree?
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