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What Do You Consider Artificial Toning?

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United States
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 Posted 01/25/2012  1:27 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add KisNap to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I was wondering what everyone considers artifician toning. Obviously a heated coin which creates a rainbow effect would not be natural toning nor would using chemicals, but what about a coin left on a sunny windowsill for 2 - 5 years? I took an extra BU Morgan dollar I had to run an experiment and placed it in a windowsill that gets tons of sunlight. After 1 1/2 years I can see it's beginning to take on a purple hue. It's not a great toning job, but like I said, it's an experiment.

What if I took that same coin and wrapped it in tinfoil or some other material to try and speed up the toning process. Would you consider that a natural tone?
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cc99999's Avatar
United States
1302 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2012  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cc99999 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
there is not a single coin that is the color it was when it left the mint presses. Any dealer that knows the first thing about coins can manipulate it to make it look however they want. If they have customers who like rainbow colored coins- they can tone them a certain way- if they have customers who like blast white coins- they'll dip them.

one prominent dealer spoke with me off the record and said that they had a rare key date Peace dollar that they sent into the major graders several times- with different surfaces to get the MS grade they wanted. They dipped the coin, and re-toned it among other things. Sometimes the coin came back MS details, cleaned, but eventually it came back the way they wanted it.

There are no pristine white silver coins that are the way they were when they were minted. There are dipped coins and coins in the midst of toning.
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matthewvincent's Avatar
United States
3486 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2012  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dear KisNap,
In my opinion any toning is artificial when a chemical or
physical action has been applied.
Natural toning is the result of time and the environment.
Therefore leaving a coin in the sunlight for an extended period of time would be "natural."
Having said that, no amount of natural toning will magically turn a cleaned coin into a non-cleaned coin.
I once placed two Mercury dimes, 1916-d and a 1921, one AG and the other Good, into a manila coin envelope and put them on a window sill for over a year. Both had been cleaned with baking soda! The result was an overall improvement, but the coins were still cleaned.
The manila envelope contained sulfur which accelerates the toning/tarnishing process.
While "cheating," the effect was about the same as putting a dime on a window sill in Pennsylvania or West Virginia during the days of heavy coal burning.

Let's see what other people have to say.
Matthew
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2012  4:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Artificial toning is any toning achieved by any process done with the intent of creating the toning. The problem is you can't always see intent.

I once received an ASE as a gift at a coin club dinner. The coin was white. It came to me in a white paper bag. When I got home I just tossed the bag on the table. Three years later I ran across that bag with something heavy in it. I didn't know what it was so I opened it up and found that the ASE had taken on some incredible toning. This was natural toning. Now if I decided I wanted another one so I put a white ASE in that bag or another one and tossed it on the table for three years and it toned the same way, that would be an AT coin. Both toned the same, both by the same method, but one is NT while the other is AT The only difference is that one was done intentionally. And you can't tell which was which.
Edited by Conder101
01/25/2012 4:11 pm
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cc99999's Avatar
United States
1302 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2012  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cc99999 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Conder101 - No disrespect, but IMO both are naturally toned. Do I go around doing this? No. But there is no morality to toning (intent/ non-intent) - it's just a matter if detectable chemical accelerants were used.

For the record, nobody knows what the long term implications of dipped coins are... but every major numismatist and coin dealer has dipped coins and dips coins on a daily basis... from David Hall on down.

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jbuck's Avatar
United States
188191 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2012  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Artificial toning is any toning achieved by any process done with the intent of creating the toning. The problem is you can't always see intent.
I made a similar comment about four years ago (regarding intent). I am glad I am not the only one who feels this way.
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CaptainFwiffo's Avatar
United States
4132 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2012  11:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CaptainFwiffo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some have suggested the alternative "market acceptable" and "not market acceptable" to describe toning. I think that's a bit tautological. "Market acceptable" is at least partly defined by what is considered "artificial". It's also much different for a buyer and a seller. "Can I get some sucker to buy this?" is one question, "How can I avoid being a sucker?" is a different one. The same applies to dipped and and cleaned coins, so people looking for blast white to avoid the whole toning the whole toning controversy don't get any help.

Maybe the question you want to answer is "did somebody do this in their kitchen in 20 minutes, or did this happen over the course of years because of how the coin was stored?" Distinguishing intent is impossible by itself. The best you can hope for is to distinguish method and duration, from which you can hope to infer intent. Was the coin put in a Wayte Raymond album decades ago by somebody looking to display, store and protect their collection? Or did some coin doctor in more recent years acquire some old album to pretty-up some white coins? There's no way to know.

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jbuck's Avatar
United States
188191 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2012  1:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There's no way to know.
I agree.

Maybe the best course of action is only buying what appeals to you and only paying the fair market value for the grade. In other words, do not assign a premium for the toning; unless you really, really like it and must have it.
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cc99999's Avatar
United States
1302 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2012  10:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cc99999 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jbuck is right... I'll take it a step further. Do not assign a premium for anything- unless you really, really like it. The more you know about a series or coin before you purchase the less likely it will be that you get rooked. That being said, expert advice and opinion, when not used as a crutch, can be a valuable and helpful tool to second your opinion on the coin.
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