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 Replies: 21 / Views: 5,356 |
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Valued Member
Canada
290 Posts |
Hello, I bought a 1991 5 Mark note from Germany(P-37) from a seller on ebay. Seller claims it is uncirculated. Upon receiving the note, I notice two distinct signs of damage, one significantly worse than the other. Here are some pictures:   I then contact the seller telling him that there is some damage on the note and that I would like a partial refund for it(I mean, am I right to expect such information in the listing's description? Moreover you can't see the damage on the listing's picture). He replies saying that the "damage" I am referring to is a Quote:
..."counting fold" which is produced by the banknote-counting machine at the banknote-producers company when the banknotes are counted and packed in original bundles. So when they are going out from their original company they already have the counting fold. Now, if that is correct, then I expect to see this fold on the majority of the 5 Deutsche Mark notes, if not all, and even on notes of other denominations and possibly of earlier years. Can anyone who has seen or has in his possession this note or similar notes please confirm this ? |
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Valued Member
Australia
146 Posts |
hey baanos - what the Seller is telling you is not necessarily correct - the note is not UNC and should never have been presented as UNC by the Seller - UNC notes usually come directly from the printers already in bundles (and without "creases" like this - in Australia with the old paper notes you will sometimes see notes with what they call a "teller's flick" (a minor but noticeable crease") that occurred when bundles were being broken down into small note lots at Bank branches - I would send it back and ask for a full refund as the Seller has been deliberately deceptive by the looks of it
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Valued Member
Sweden
71 Posts |
Unfortunately there are a lot of dealers who claim that their notes are UNCirculated, but they are not. The price different between UNC and AU notes sometimes can be significant.
In your case the crease is really big, and IMHO the dealer's expanation is a very lame one.
Are you going to return the banknote? Well, it depends on the price - if the price is close to the catalogue price, then you would return it (I know I would do that).
And now the major question: Even if you return the note, and get fully refunded, what feedback to leave? Can anyone help with the answer?
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Valued Member
 Canada
290 Posts |
Thanks guys. I wish I could return it but there are some possible issues involved. First, I don't trust this seller. We've exchanged a few messages and he was rude to me. He forces buyers to pay for registered shipping probably to protect himself, and it says in the listing that buyer pays return shipping.
I could see him claim that he did not receive my note if I sent it back to him through unregistered mail. So, to protect myself then, I would send it through registered mail and that would cost me about the same he paid I'm guessing, about 8 dollars. I paid 9 dollars for the note so I would rather keep the note if I have to pay for the shipping out of my own pocket.
However, if I can somehow write a claim to Paypal in order to force him to refund me about 10$ in order for me to pay for the shipping to return the note to him, I would do it, but I have never done this so I'm not sure what Paypal would decide in this case.
The optimal scenario for me would be to have Paypal force the seller partially refund me and allow me to keep the note, this way I would avoid the trouble of packaging the note and going to the post office to ship it. I wouldn't mind having paid, for example, 5$ for such an aUNC note.
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Valued Member
Australia
146 Posts |
hey baanos - report Dealer to ebay and try and get refund that way - shouldnt be a problem as Seller has deliberately misrepresented the condition of the note Also what is the Seller's ID so that I can put them on my "banned" list? |
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Valued Member
Canada
290 Posts |
His seller ID is detlef_hilmer and has 99.7% positive feedback. I've seen the same note from another reputable seller and I can see the same counting fold, but to a lesser extent. See here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Germany-Fed...em20c287f1cbI inquired about the note to this seller as well. Here is what he said: Quote:
yes at the security strip which is not a counting fold but part of the security strip insertion process, this is how they were manufactured Quote:
it has nothing to do with counting Leads me to think that detlef_hilmer may be telling the truth when claiming this is how they are manufactured, but still, it should've been mentionned in the listing's description as it's really noticeable. I will still file a report to ebay and see what happens. Thanks for the help. |
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Wow personally, I've never had problems with Detlef_hilmer, I've dealt with them alot of times, he has a lot of good notes which are harder to find, and seem to usually be cheaper than most people selling. Of all the times I never had a problem dealing with them, but just seems you were unlucky =s. I know you can definitely get a refund though if the picture clearly shows no crease, or even a different serial number. Before I had bought a papal states note from another seller who claimed an uncirculated note but when it arrived had 7-10 pinholes throughout the note as well as 3/4 small tears non of which were visible, I spoke to the seller but he didnt want to give a partial refund claiming I got it for a good enough price, so I took the case up with ebay and they forced a refund. I sent the note, but was a little worried that the same would happen like you said. But eventually he got the note, and I got my full refund (apart from shipping/posting). |
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Valued Member
Canada
290 Posts |
I'm glad you never had problems dealing with this guy, as for me, I will never buy from him again. I actually disputed the transaction on Paypal and won the case. I only got a partial refund, but that is what I had asked for.  btw |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3098 Posts |
detlef is right - these are marks from the strip insertion. They can occur on the top or bottom or both. Because the woven strips have to be done so a "showing" part isn't at the edge of the paper and prevent the strip from separating from the paper, the manufacturing process makes sure to check the note by more or less heat-sealing it in. As the strip gets bigger, the paper gets more creased. Here are some pics of HKDs with a 3mm strip. The paper is disturbed on all the notes.   Actually with these kinds of notes, you would want that dimple because that means they were not used and kept very well. Notes without that mark may mean they were pressed or spot-washed to get rid of it. **edited to add pics Edited by wd1040
04/22/2012 11:18 am
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Sad to hear that, but on another note glad you got the partial refund I guess :s. Thank you also :).
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Valued Member
Canada
290 Posts |
wd1040:
I'm not saying I don't believe this, but how would you explain then that I have bought another 5 Mark note(only difference is that it's a replacement note) from another seller and I'm not even sure if has a crease. If there is one, it's barely visible. Oh also, I'm not trying to make a point with this, but I have a few 200 sol notes from Peru which have a strip similar to your Hong Kong dollar notes and along the strip it seems the paper has been disturbed, but no crease at any end of the strip.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote:
Because the woven strips have to be done so a "showing" part isn't at the edge of the paper and prevent the strip from separating from the paper, the manufacturing process makes sure to check the note by more or less heat-sealing it in. Knowing a few things from making paper and managing commercial printing, I would be interested in hearing more about the process of inserting the "security strip". Given how the paper surrounds the strip in places, most likely the strip was integrated as the paper was made. The wrinkles you see on the HKDs around the SS are due to different expansion/contraction rates for the paper and the security strip. When the newly-made paper dries, it will shrink uniformly--except around the security strip--which shrinks less, causing wrinkles. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3098 Posts |
Quote:
Given how the paper surrounds the strip in places, most likely the strip was integrated as the paper was made. What I posted was just an explanation someone told me... sorry if it's wrong! They do put the strip in during the manufacturing process, which leads to the different rates of contraction, but from what I understand during the post-production some machine also physically presses the note... hence the fold... I'm not sure, but that makes sense to me. Baanos: I took out my 5DM note from a long time ago... yeah the crease doesn't seem as extreme as yours... Now I wonder how grading companies would judge these, and whether these marks will seriously affect the grade. I'd certainly like to get my hands on the first batch of colored $100s! Even before releasing the BEP is having problems with the paper creasing, on the side of the strips too!  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote:
but from what I understand during the post-production some machine also physically presses the note... hence the fold... I'm not sure, but that makes sense to me. I'm not "right"--just following clues based on my knowledge.  That makes sense to me too--I'm sure a lot of paper money is pressed or treated to minimize wrinkles during production. |
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Yeh I seen similar creasing on other banknotes before like this too.
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Quote:
He replies saying that the "damage" I am referring to is a..."counting fold" So what? It's still PMD, and the note wouldn't certify over 60. |
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Replies: 21 / Views: 5,356 |
Posted 03/14/2012 08:40 am
