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Help With 1932-D AU Quarter - Applied MM?

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Bedrock of the Community
Earle42's Avatar
United States
10034 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2012  10:09 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I recently got this AU 32D from a reputable dealer whom I trust explicitly. When I got it home and took some pics, I noted that around the D mint mark is a small looking "halo". Look carefully around the MM in the following pic and you can see it. Also (and I cannot capture this on my camera) there is a slight patina to the lower left just below the MM.

Help-With-1932-D-AU-Quarter---Applied-MM?

I googled and cannot find a list of die markers for determining fakes. I am not stuck with this coin as he will take it back. I have not shown this to him in hand yet - but will in the next couple of weeks. But I did call him. He told me he actually had cracked this out of an NGC slab.

Help anyone?

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***

Help-With-1932-D-AU-Quarter---Applied-MM?

Help-With-1932-D-AU-Quarter---Applied-MM?

How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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mitchhailey's Avatar
United States
1150 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2012  10:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mitchhailey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It sounds like he'll make it right. The halo looks suspicious, but that doesn't mean it is. I just wonder why he would have cracked such a coin out of an NGC slab?
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  08:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And I too wonder why he would have taken it out of that slab. That would have been a great selling point. Why not ask him for that slab? Naturally he will say he threw it away. Would have been nice to see how it was graded.
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ContraJame's Avatar
United States
292 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  09:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ContraJame to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I three wonder why he cracked it out. That halo you're seeing could be solder used to apply the MM. Did you put it under a loupe and check for metal separation or inconsistencies?
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bjones's Avatar
United States
304 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  10:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bjones to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From what I see, it's definitely worth of suspicion. Where's Columbo when you need him?
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  11:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it was NGC you can look up its photograph in their cert database. Ask for its number.

If it's not clear you could also submit it to The Black Cabinet.
Edited by SteveCaruso
04/02/2012 11:30 am
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The halo got my attention too, as did the filled-in D--how common is that?
A while ago, I put together this montage of 32-D mintmarks from Heritage pics--perhaps it's useful here?

Help-With-1932-D-AU-Quarter---Applied-MM?
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On PCGS coinfacts I found one example of a filled D, but it doesn't match this one. So, they are out there. :-)

However, 1 out of a few dozen graded examples would suggest (at least anecdotally) that it isn't very common.
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
10034 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks everyone for your help - I like the picture especially. I know there are die markers for 1922 pennies etc. Does anyone know of any for the 32D quarter? I cannot now, but will compare mine to the pics later.
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
Bedrock of the Community
Earle42's Avatar
United States
10034 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Obviously mine does not match the pics.

I just got off the phone with him.

First he said he would gladly give me my money back (I expected this).

I THEN explained to him what has been being said here. And that I had put it under my 800X stereoscope and can see where it looks like there might be a slight bit of separation at the front of the D; the D looks almost like (in places), there is a small platform under it; the patina actually is more widespread into that area than I saw initially, the D is filled, and the D is also higher than the surrounding design.

He told me that it was in a heritage auction a couple of weeks ago (unfortunately the site is down as I just tried to locate the coin so I could get the number). He told me he will look for the slab and call me back with the number.

I asked him why he took it out of the holder. He said sometimes he sees a good slabbed coin that is marked "environmental damage," "lightly cleaned," or toned. He said all it takes is a quick dipping (!) and the coin is then fine. He also added he brakes slabs b/c he finds people coming in the store want coins to put in albums and to not have them in slabs. I know that a couple times before this he and I have both discussed how we do not like the concept of slabbed coins in general (unlike jbuck who LOVES them right?).

I thought dipping was a big no no according to this forum

Or is it a special case that there are some coins (albeit few) that can have this done to preserve them?

And, again, he has a good reputation amongst collectors/dealers in this area. He had no problems with any of this and agreed that the TPGs do make many mistakes.

Comments welcome - please !

How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  2:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good. It sounds like in either direction it'll work out well in the end for you.

This actually illustrates one of the fundamental differences between a dealer and a collector: A collector (generally) buys a coin to collect. A dealer (generally) buys a coin to re-sell. Some things a collector would never think of doing to their collection (like dipping a key date), a dealer would consider -- in varying degrees, given the warp and weft of their moral fiber -- to increase their ROI.

Where I'm sure the dealer you're working with isn't the generally dishonest sort, allow me to quote the illustrative words of M. Von Lipwig:


Quote:
"You see, on the day I was orphaned, I had only two things to my name: The family nag -- and 'nag' is being generous -- and my wits. But wit, and a bit of boot polish, can turn a nag into a horse... at least for 20 minutes. Which is all I needed. Twelve horse trades later, and I had enough cash to get into diamonds."


:-)
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D0ubl3Eagle's Avatar
United States
5854 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  6:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the coin looks good. The coin appears tall and boxy which I believe is a characteristic of both the 32-D and S. You say that the D appears to have a "shelf", and if I remember correctly, the ANA guide on Counterfeit Detection showed genuine examples of which had that "shelf". I remember reading in the PCGS guide that there is often lots of die polish lines around the mintmark. DVCollector's picture clearly shows several examples of the die polish. I also remember that the mintmark can sometimes appear to sit in a depression.
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smokeriderdon's Avatar
United States
3755 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  8:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add smokeriderdon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks OK to me. The MM can be fairly variable, and "shelfing" isn't necessarily an indication of counterfeit. An acetone dip and a swipe with a cotton swab will tellyou if it is glued on or not.

Dipping a coin is just fine, key date or not. Its excessive dipping that is an issue. Or something like wiping the coin or other such harsh acts.
Bedrock of the Community
Earle42's Avatar
United States
10034 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  10:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I really appreciate the knowledge shared here by CCF family. I thought I would get my set up going and take a few more pics this afternoon:
Help-With-1932-D-AU-Quarter---Applied-MM?

Help-With-1932-D-AU-Quarter---Applied-MM?

In the bottom pic, I think it is just the lighting bringing out the mark to the upper right of the D. I did not see this under the 800X magnification - if this were what it looked like I would definitely say it was soldered on.

How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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wquinn's Avatar
United States
2295 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2012  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It doesn't make sense on cracking it out of the NGC slab, unless he is trying to hide something that the label had on it. Keeping it in the slab would have given it more value, unless, like I said, he is trying to hide something.
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