Contemporary Counterfeit Madrid Ferdinand VII 2 Reales 1833

Good pictures! Are those dark areas just stains or plating flaking off?

How much does it weigh, and does the ring tone sound the same as a known genuine one?

Portait styles varied quite a bit with these. No doubt helped the counterfeiters immensly!

That coin is a bit of an enigma and a LONG STORY. Even the originals are difficult to understand in terms of their intrinsic value. As a two reale coin originals were unlikely to actually have ever circulated. The reason is simple economics. The 1833 2R contained 0.1767 ounces of silver - yet in 1823 Spain issued a 4R coin that contained only 0.1572 the standard used by the "occupying" forces. Here is where some history and economics intersect with numismatics. You see - Spain was in an extremely unstable condition after 1808 and by 1823 there were actually competing coin series of different values. I am not an expert in Spanish history but I know enough to know that when a coin contains too much metal value for the face value level - it LEAVES CIRCULATION at face value and becomes bullion. In economics, the adage that "bad money drives out good" applies.

So the "good money" the 1833 heavy 2Rs were hoarded while the "bad money" the lighter 2Rs circulated freely along with other debased issues - mostly copper.

The old issue 2Rs continued to be hunted because by the 1840s the average person knew they contained silver equal to 5 times the face value. For fun just check the prices of old standard 8Rs made after 1823. All the dates after 1823 are VERY RARE. The reason is because very few were ever made. The authorities knew they would leave circulation almost instantly.

The second coinage is listed in Krause as De Vellon coinage. It was begun with the Joseph Napoleon issues. JN was put in office by Napoleon Bonaparte and Ferdinand VII was removed. The old standard coins may have been retained by royalist sympathisers but they were not money.

The 1833 date is the last date for which the heavier standard was used. By the time of Isabella in 1840 the heavier coins were NOT circulating.

Because they were the last date of a popular HEAVY series these coins were also a perfect target for a bullion forger operating at any time after the coinage began to stabilize (ca 1840).

The important question is when were these counterfeits made? Why were they made and how should they be classified?

Based on my experience the 1833 counterfeits are very common - they are usually high grade - they are struck using a well made image and they are electroplated. In the 1830's technology for forgery had not progressed to the point where this forgery could have been made. In fact it employs techniques that (in my opinion) date to roughly 30-50 years after the coin came out of circulation.

I have owned several copies of that coin at different times and all of them were high grades with very "weak" plates. The plate flakes off easily because the surfaces that were plated were dirty. As forgeries these coins most closely resemble late 19th and early 20th century European forgeries (early numismatic varieties) of Spanish coins BUT they never look circulated.

I have searched for some time for a truly worn example with a period cancellation - and I have not located one.

Add that up and I am at a point where I believe this variety is a non-circulating type - perhaps made as a bullion forgery BUT clearly NOT a valuable contemporary counterfeit.

FWIW, one example of this frequently seen fake appeared with a large collection of contemporary counterfeits on ebay recently and was catalogued as "Barrera 573"...




That's definitely the case... have also never seen any that seem to have anything more than light handling wear, though they do often display some corrosion due to their nature.

However, the idea that original specimens of 2 "reales de plata" had a higher intristic value than their theoretical equivalent, the 4 "reales de vellon" (as represented by the Joseph Napoleon coinage and that of Isabella II), and thus would have been driven out of circulation, is predicated on the incorrect reporting of the specifications of the Spain 1772-1833 "reales de plata" (halfR, 1R, 2R)... namely by the Krause book. Krause shows the Spain bust 2R, for example, as being 6.77g (same weight, essentially, as the "old standard" which the colonies had continued minting), though with a lowered silver fineness of 0.8125. While that quoted fineness is probably what they were using, the weight given for this coinage is simply wrong. A Spain bust 2R as struck seems to have weighed in just below 6.0g (high 5.9 range). I've never seen an exact explanation of why Krause confusingly provides a blatantly incorrect weight... However, I've seen speculation that this is due to Krause simply regurgitating what Spain "officially" reported about their coinage at the time, the idea being that Spain was trying to maintain some sort of illusion regarding their coinage.

Now, the conversion system for these two confusingly similarly-named systems was 8 "reales de plata" to 20 "reales de vellon"... Further muddying this is the fact that due to the earlier "tinkering" with the "reales de plata", the homeland Spain minor denominations of 2R, 1R, and half R had been reduced by roughly 20% as compared to the old standard (which again, was still used on Spain's COLONIAL output). In the English world, we called this devalued coinage "new plate" (a ba$tardized translation); note that the "pistareen", particularly common in the U.S. South, was used as a 20 cent piece once we adopted our dollar, the silver content of which was VERY close to the "peso", aka 8 Reales.... Under that conversion, it now took FIVE homeland Spain "2 reales" coins to equal a full "peso duro" (or old standard 8 reales) as opposed to four. Thus, the Spain BUST 2R, 1R, and half real "de plata" equated to the 4R, 2R, and 1R "de vellon". Now, if we figure the known TRUE weight of the Spain bust 2R (call it 6.0g even) and use the quoted 0.8125 fineness figure (I believe I've seen something that indicated the mid-1700's pistareens have indeed been found to test close to this figure), you end up with something very close to the known .157 troy oz. ASW of the "vellon" 4 Reales...

PS - Spain had been messing with the content of the "real de plata"-type homeland 2R, 1R, and half real (and for a while, the 8R and 4R also, though they eventually returned to the old standards on those two) back to the late 1600s, through all of the "pistareen" type round shield coinage... In the early 1700's, that coinage varied widely in terms of gross weight and the fineness of the alloy. By the mid-1700's, they seem to have settled on something similar the specs seen on the bust coinage that followed, as discussed above.

Not actually worn from circulation... but at least beaten around a bit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPAIN-1833-...200747449826

Just change the country code to see the auction... use ".com" instead of ".fr".

But actually, forget that beaten-up piece... how about this piece I noticed when looking at your 1820 Lima 4R (same seller, "indalo..."):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/440-INDALO-...220964607577

Definitely looks to have honest circulation wear...

Bob - these are confirmed silver plating over copper alloy. Own several. Similar to the Sheffield design. Regal silver fused over a copper host coin. Note the green oxidation. Note the silver peeling away. Not silver wash. Not german silver. Will need to look at my examples. I own about (5) of these fully XRF tested. If anyone here owns any 2 Reales of the Spanish American mints I am a BIG buyer on these pieces. Contact me privately.

John Lorenzo
United States

With contemporaries WHEN is always a problem. Clues are sometimes given in the fabric of the metal. For me ... What's it made of ... NEVER is ... The date on this is so LATE (1833). I will check tonight in my collection and post an XRF summary of this type. These ALWAYS come superior. NEVER inferior ... so probably the same maker. Never seen a silver washed (maybe? - will confirm tonight), german silver or cast 1833 of this type and year. Keep me posted on the Spanish American Mint types like Lima, Mexico City, Santiago, etc ... for the 2R's. Personally ... I like this issue ... superb design, alloy type superior ... etc. ... but I LOVE all CC2R's of the Potrait Types (1771-1825) <BG>.

JPL

I am the only person on E-Bay that collects fake 2R's and then after XRF asnalysis if regal put the REAL ONES back into the marketplace. Real ones are BORING. <BG>. Just fakes in off-metal such as brass, copper, german silver and tin. Just the Portraits. Just the Spanish American Mints.

JPL