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 Replies: 14 / Views: 2,524 |
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Moderator
 Canada
10458 Posts |
Wow... I go away for a few days, and all heck breaks loose in the other thread? I am definitely not impressed that I cannot even answer the comments. Quote:
Where on earth do you get you information? Well, part of my work is in a lab, with everything from acetone to nitric acid to fluorine gas. So, my information comes from MSDS sheets, like this one: http://www.collectioncare.org/MSDS/Acetonemsds.pdfAcetone is nasty, especially the fumes, and it is a cumulative effect over time. Telling people otherwise, is wrong. Being careful when handling acetone is valid advice. Quote:
Virtually everything you stated is pure nonsense. Everything that I stated, regarding the reaction of acetone and copper with light, is published in the scientific literature. As for marring the surface of a coin with your fingertips, with water and pure (and I do stress the word 'pure' here) soap (not dish soap), well, take a modern proof, specimen or proof-like strike, which only costs a couple of bucks, and test it yourself - as long as your hands are clean. If I cannot see hairlines afterwards under the SEM, you sure as heck are not going to see them. In science, this is called reproducibility or repeatability of experiments - test your outcomes against mine. Lastly, if you are going to debate, then use facts and make your arguments constructive. If the laws of physics don't apply to you, then say so - it makes the decision of whether to post replies, or not, much easier... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
Edited by SPP-Ottawa
04/18/2012 03:24 am
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
Those MSDS's must be have the info presented and printed to an ISO standard.
The Acetone MSDS presented here is very nearly the same as that shown in my former workplace.
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Valued Member
United States
117 Posts |
Every day millions of people use acetone to remove nail polish and I've yet to hear of any nail polish remover related fatalities!  Advising people to use their fingers and soap to remove PVC slime is just wrong and unsupportable. If velvet coin cabinets can cause "cabinet friction" then scouring a coin with your fingers in a futile attempt to remove PVC slime with soap is bound to damage the coin. Of course precautions must be used with acetone, just as with any other flammable liquid but your alarmist post deliberately distorts facts and gives advice which, IMO, is just plain wrong. Edited by TheCoinGeezer
04/18/2012 08:42 am
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Valued Member
Canada
475 Posts |
Use acetone very carefully........it is nasty stuff as are all chemicals in the wrong hands. Leave coin restoration to people who know what they are doing. You do not have to send it to NCS ...overated and too expensive but find someone who knows proper methods.
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Moderator
United States
188770 Posts |
Moderator Warning:
I am going to let this conversation continue as long as it remains civil.
If it degrades into childish cheap shots, suspensions will be handed out.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9865 Posts |
I've used both acetone and Ivory soap on circulated silver coins without harm.
On Monday after reading the Acetone Bath thread I decided to experiment with pennies from the '70s.To my surprise one uncirculated cent showed some irridescence.I understand acetone will react with copper in the presence of water and light,where did the water come from? I'm going to try this again with a different brand of acetone.For now I'd say don't use acetone on MS copper.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Quote:
So, my information comes from MSDS sheets Material Safety Data Sheets are written by pinhead lawyers with an eye towards every potential legal liability(real or imagined) in a commercial/industrial setting, they are useful but only to a point. Quote:
2. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
Potential Health Effects
Inhalation May be harmful if inhaled. May cause respiratory tract irritation.
Skin May be harmful if absorbed through skin. May cause skin irritation.
Eyes May cause eye irritation.
Ingestion May be harmful if swallowed.
4. FIRST AID MEASURES
If inhaled
If breathed in, move person into fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration.
In case of skin contact
Wash off with soap and plenty of water.
In case of eye contact
Flush eyes with water as a precaution.
If swallowed
Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. Rinse mouth with water.
8. EXPOSURE CONTROLS/PERSONAL PROTECTION
Hand protection
Handle with gloves. Gloves must be inspected prior to use. Use proper glove removal technique (without touching glove's outer surface) to avoid skin contact with this product. Dispose of contaminated gloves after use in accordance with applicable laws and good laboratory practices. Wash and dry hands.
11. TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Potential health effects
Inhalation May be harmful if inhaled. May cause respiratory tract irritation.
Ingestion May be harmful if swallowed.
Skin May be harmful if absorbed through skin. May cause skin irritation.
Eyes May cause eye irritation.
The preceding is an excerpt of an actual MSDS from Sigma-Aldrich, can you guess what scary and dangerous chemical it is for? Molecular Biology Reagent Water, nothing but one oxygen and two hydrogen atoms. My favorite is the bolded parts under First Aid Measures  Quote:
Everything that I stated, regarding the reaction of acetone and copper with light, is published in the scientific literature. That is true and I have most likely read the same literature. However, having something occur in a lab setting where you can have infinite control over the conditions(which controls the experimental outcome) is not the same as something occcuring in your kitchen under normal household conditions. |
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Moderator
 Canada
10458 Posts |
I cannot speak for lawyers, but I am sure they appreciate the compliment...
Regardless of any personal interpretation, MSDS information is regulated. You could argue that generations have safely transported gasoline - but just try to do it in a container other one approved to do so, or in bulk without proper TODG protocols...
Common sense and being pragmatic is ok at times, but ignorance in the past does not necessarily fly today. My grandfather used to clean greasy tools in benzene, something we now know is harmful. Even with your example, most fingernail polish remover now, is either strongly diluted acetone, or acetone-free..
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
Edited by SPP-Ottawa
04/19/2012 10:12 am
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Valued Member
United States
117 Posts |
Quote:
Even with your example, most fingernail polish remover now, is either strongly diluted acetone, or acetone-free..
That simply is not the case. There may well be acetone-free remover but most remover sold in my neck of the woods is acetone based and composed primarily of acetone with some minor additives for scent and such. The CVS by me sells "professional strength" remover which is pure acetone without any additives whatsoever. Acetone has been used for many years as a PVC slime remover and no doubt will continue to be so used for many years to come. Aside from the standard precautions one must take with any volatile liquid, acetone is completely safe and effective for use as a PVC remover on any coin. Saying that it is "nasty stuff", making alarmist posts about its use and recommending using one's fingers and soap to remove PVC slime is, at minimum, a gross distortion of facts and a disservice to the collecting community. Edited by TheCoinGeezer
04/19/2012 12:43 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2426 Posts |
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
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recommending using one's fingers and soap to remove PVC slime is, at minimum, a gross distortion of facts and a disservice to the collecting community. I beg to differ, and have examined coins both before and after with a scanning electron microscope to prove it. What evidence do you have to back up your statement' Mike and t_y, perhaps you need to chime in here - I know you have done or seen, the exact same ivory soap method used to clean the PVC film, or "green ick" as you call it, off of mint state and proof silver coins.... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
Edited by SPP-Ottawa
04/20/2012 12:28 am
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Valued Member
Canada
248 Posts |
Wow! ---IMO to put it simply cleaning a coin in any way makes it a cleaned coin and is not good in the end, if water doesn't take it off without rubbing it,leave it! call it patina and sell it for a premium.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
SPP's method works with no damage if done properly. An Alarmist is one name I would never use on him however. His small cent collection is second to none (in all 4 strikes) as is his nickel dollar sets. I take his word as fact and I have been around the block once or twice myself. Your work with the SEM and XRF are blowing the myths of numismatics away. Maybe if people tried your method as you suggest, another one would go away as well.
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Valued Member
United States
117 Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
recommending using one's fingers and soap to remove PVC slime is, at minimum, a gross distortion of facts and a disservice to the collecting community.
I beg to differ, and have examined coins both before and after with a scanning electron microscope to prove it. What evidence do you have to back up your statement'
You took my comment completely out of context. What I wrote was Quote:
Saying that it is "nasty stuff", making alarmist posts about its use and recommending using one's fingers and soap to remove PVC slime is, at minimum, a gross distortion of facts and a disservice to the collecting community. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2426 Posts |
...then scouring a coin with your fingers in a futile attempt to remove PVC slime with soap is bound to damage the coin. ...Saying that it is "nasty stuff", making alarmist posts about its use and recommending using one's fingers and soap to remove PVC slime is, at minimum, a gross distortion of facts and a disservice to the collecting community. Just my opinion...I dont see how things were taken out of context. Edited by darryldarryl
04/20/2012 4:36 pm
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Replies: 14 / Views: 2,524 |
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Posted 04/18/2012 08:15 am
