Is This A Cast? - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 1,419
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 05/14/2012 08:20 am Filled-in lettering. Is this a cast? Are Klippe casts genuine? Why not? http://www.ebay.com/itm/40029245541....m1423.l2649 John Lorenzo United States Report this Post to the Staff

Numismat Pillar of the Community United States 1666 Posts	Posted 05/15/2012 02:20 am It's not cast, but rather a struck coin. Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 05/15/2012 09:45 am History tells us the casts of Klippe's are fakes but I am seeing something else with XRF analysis. Examining three cast pieces purchased over the last year from people thinking they were cast fakes the silver values were 55%, 75% and 85% or so and the results showed lead and zinc in good proportions. I don't have the exact data in front of me as I write this post but I will be doing a paper on these pieces. The item I pictured looks like the cast pieces I have in my possession. I would love to examine some of these shipwreck pieces which appear cast (i.e., filled-in lettering such as the top of the A's being metal filled-in as would happen to this letter punch in a casting mold) and see what the Ag values are in the compositions. It seems these casts are possibly derived from melted debased silver alloy 8R's. These are very well made pieces. This item we see here is not so much sea water corrosion but these filled-in letters seem to make this piece cast and yet these are linked to a shipwreck. Some Klippe's are sharp and some have blotchly letters or filled-in tops. Prove to me Numismat it's a struck coin other than a Certificate ... Edited by colonialjohn 05/15/2012 09:48 am Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 05/15/2012 3:03 pm This piece is NOT a Rooswijk piece, or a shipwreck piece at all (which I would think should be pretty obvious if you ignore the supposed provenance and just look at the coin itself). It comes from either last Cayon auction or the one before that, offered as an authentic (non-salvage) Klippe 1733 8R. The tard who has it up is trying to be slick, thinking a shipwreck pedigree for a coin with no sea-wear heightens its appeal (he pulled similar silliness with a few other pieces from this auction). Something like indistinct legend lettering WOULD of course normally be a warning sign of a possible cast... However, if you're familiar with the series, you'll note that many (perhaps most?) perfectly fine klippes exhibit this feature to at least some extent, for whatever reason. Aside from that, I don't think this piece's design/surfaces suggest it is anything other than a legit klippe, which Cayon signed off on as well. Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 05/15/2012 4:14 pm If I was to publish an article realeswatcher that during this period both cast pieces and struck pieces were "possibly" produced from XRF analyses on my cast? pieces - where should I publish such an article? The (3) pieces I own are underweight have filled in lettering but the silver content on my (3) ranges from 50-85% silver. I did read that the struck Klippe's were made against a 93% Ag standard. History tells us there were no equipment problems at this time and production number were strong but the assay on my (3) pieces reads like a regal (legitimate issue) except for the low silver values. Do you think I should try the Numismatist? I relayed the information over to Sedwick - he was impressed with the data and said "You will meet with great resistance." But he never said I was off-base with my analyses and findings and found them very interesting. John Lorenzo United States Report this Post to the Staff
Numismat Pillar of the Community United States 1666 Posts	Posted 05/15/2012 10:09 pm John... the proof is in examining the features closely and comparing to know authenticated struck examples of the series. Filled in letters occur on struck coins too, especially the early crudely struck ones such as these. Edited by Numismat 05/15/2012 10:12 pm Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 05/16/2012 03:40 am As has been pointed out, the filled-in lettering is often seen on genuine Mex klippes. Why exactly is that? I don't know, chalk it up to something in the manufacturing process. Whatever the cause, this feature is indeed frequently seen on known genuine pieces. John, I presume that referring to the (3) cast counterfeit Klippe 8R you own, (2) of them are those ebay pieces from last month, 251033600280 and 260996171045? Those two pieces, again, really aren't anything that can even be compared to genuine mint-issued Klippe Mexico 8R - they are low-quality in terms of execution of detail. Is the 3rd piece you have along those lines as well? Also, in terms of the alloys you found in those counterfeit Klippes... the fact that you're finding trace metals that you would expect in "old-time" alloys definitely could be explained by the forgers having used melted down (and slightly diluted) original mint-issue coinage. FYI, not sure this makes too much difference in terms of observed tolerance, but the proper silver fineness of a Mex. Klippe should be .917, not .931. The Spanish crown had tweaked it downward in a 1728 ordinance. Edited by realeswatcher 05/16/2012 03:46 am Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 05/16/2012 08:42 am I will publish my findings in the C4 Newsletter which is the publication of the Colonial Coins Collector Club. I can then send out copies to various individuals and possibly electronically after its published. I can also send the article to various numismatic sources like Sedwick. Realeswatcher - It seems so - yes these are the two I purchased realeswatcher and another cast from Richard August via Clem Schettino. Yes - it seems the forger? used melted down reales whether debased or genuine and then casted these pieces. I have been studying contemporary counterfeits all my life and this is the first time I have seen a forger? used this type of process with the silver values are 55%, 65% and 81%. I checked last night on the exact values. As the Mexican Collecting fraternity seems to think - someone in and around very late 1800's/Early 1900's started to create these pieces? Since these are plated in 1938 in the Numismatic History of Mexico by Alberto F Pradeau reference book these must have been made prior to this period. Sedwick believes they started to appear several decades prior to this publication from a private conversation. Minimally - these are worth writing about - incredibly WELL EXECUTED cast forgeries? I plan on trying to purchase a genuine 1734 Klippe and see what its alloy is saying. Pradeau makes some great arguments but when people here casts they think of a garbage alloy - these are anything but garbage type alloy compositions ... Report this Post to the Staff
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