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What Do The Numbers Mean

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New Member

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 Posted 06/11/2012  4:13 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add andoyan62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello Community,
I am learning about grading coins but I don't understand what the numbers mean? as an example (VF20) what is a 20 stand for
I would be greatly appreciated for any and all help.
Jon
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amida17's Avatar
United States
4897 Posts
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Namachieli's Avatar
United States
2120 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2012  5:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Namachieli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To dilute the info provided above,

There are widely accepted Proper grades in the industry.

G - Good
VG - Very Good
MS - Mint State
(many more)

Etc. Also, there are often times coins that fit in between these grades. For instance you have a coin that is certainly not VG, because of an amount of wear in a key area, yet it is way to Nice to just call it a plain ole Good.

This is where the numbers come in. They allow us to differentiate varying grades within a grade.

An exaggerated example is in the AU Grade. You can have;

AU50 - Not quite enough wear to be an Extra Fine, but obvious.
AU53 - Wear is apparent, but not distracting and overly noticeable
AU55 - Slight traces of wear are visible on a few places, but take some effort to see.
AU58 - Wear is only noticeable under magnification and on the highest points of the coin.

Past this you are in MS (Mint state) territory, and its varying levels.

There is a whole school of thought on placing a grade on a coin between MS64 - MS 70, so I wont go into it.

Hope this helps.
Edited by Namachieli
06/11/2012 5:56 pm
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Namachieli's Avatar
United States
2120 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2012  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Namachieli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I should also mention this 1-70 point scale starts at

PO1 (Poor)

and ranges all the way up to

MS70 (Mint State)
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2012  6:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Welcome to that confusion of a numbering system. Way back we only had G, F, Unc and Proof. And it all worked out great. Then naturally someone said well this is better than G but not as good as F so I'll call it VG or AF for Very Good or Almost Fine. This got more and more of those people with nothing to do to continue this with Almost Good, Almost fine, Almost anything. Next thing everyone was joining in with AG, G, AF, F, VF and on and on and on.
Along the way someone said this could be done with numbers so everyone wouldn't have to know that G is Good. So there was this 1 to 70 point system started but still many wanted the G, F, etc. so all these silly numbers ended up with the letters attached. Which is why we now have VG-8, AU-50, F-12 and all the rest.
Oddly enough if you look through the famous Red Book, 2013 edition, this is sort of explained on page 9. This to some would indicate that with that so very carefully explained, all throughout this book, that system would be used. Right?
Well then check out page 87?
New Member
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 Posted 06/11/2012  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add andoyan62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So if I am understanding this corectly I can grade a coin VG2 or G3?
New Member
United States
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 Posted 06/11/2012  8:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doug3333 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No, not really. Each letter grade (like G or VG) has a baseline, and everything below that baseline must be a lower letter grade. You saw this in the explanation of AU. For instance, if you thought you had almost an AU-50, but "not quite," you could not say AU-49, as the 40s grades are in the realm of Extremely Fine. I know it's confusing.
New Member
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 Posted 06/11/2012  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add andoyan62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok so by what you are saying each category as per example AU's have the 50's number another words there is no AU60 or 61, the 60is assign to MS?
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carmykle's Avatar
United States
2448 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2012  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carmykle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


VG should start at 8 as in VG-8.

Tell you what, I have a couple of books on grading that I can send you free of charge. Once you get 50 posts, good posts, just PM me and I'll send you one that will lay out the system of how you might grade a coin.

Keep in mind that it takes a good amount of experience before your grading skills will allow you to recognize a coin's true condition. Hang in there and keep looking at coins. Oh, and when someone asks for an opinion as to a coins grade in the forum, you might want to participate. Just walk in and test the water. Everyone on the forum helped me.
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 Posted 06/11/2012  8:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add andoyan62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much for your offer I will keep you in mined when I post 50 topics.
thanks again averyone for your help and guidens.
Jon
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bpoc1's Avatar
United States
4078 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2012  9:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Andoyan 62,great question.
Very informative answers but, why does "Grading Coins by Photographs" by Q. David Bowers still show coins graded AG-3 ( About Good)?
Is the AG grade out.
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 Posted 06/12/2012  09:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Very informative answers but, why does "Grading Coins by Photographs" by Q. David Bowers still show coins graded AG-3 ( About Good)?
Is the AG grade out.

None of the older names are really out. As I mentioned many pages in the famous Red Book still use G, VG, etc. Page 40 and 41 for example. Page 9 only shows down to AG-3 but many have lesser notations for coins of lesser quality. Many dealers use terms such as BU for Brilliant Uncirculated and Gem Uncirculated too.
Although today most attempt to standardize the terminology of coin grading, still many don't. So if you think your confused now, go to a coin show and you'll probably see even more statements on what the coin could, should, might be.
And I'm pushing for a 100 point system next. Or a metric system for grading.
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Namachieli's Avatar
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 Posted 06/12/2012  10:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Namachieli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So if I am understanding this corectly I can grade a coin VG2 or G3?


Not Quite.

The Letter grade and number grade are two separate grading systems. We just pin the two together for Correlation and consistency.

So in the case of AU, the number grade 50 - 58 would be the same as saying AU, or 20 - 35 would be VF.

One system has precise standards for each grade (Numerical)
The other is approximate, at a glace, for each grade (Letter)
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Namachieli's Avatar
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 Posted 06/12/2012  10:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Namachieli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
go to a coin show and you'll probably see even more statements on what the coin could, should, might be


If there is any one thing I've learned, is that a lot of dealers can't grade a coin, or recognize a cleaned/whizzed/dipped coin to save their lives.
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numismo's Avatar
United States
3039 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2012  11:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
....there is no AU60 or 61. Actually there is. Its AU coins graded MS by TPGs that have lowered their standards.
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
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 Posted 06/12/2012  11:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Namachieli, I think you are right on. Seems many of these newer dealers came into the business after the TPG's were already up an running. They probably started as investors and figured it was easy to make the jump to dealer. It was easy for them to buy and sell slabbed coins because they didn't need to learn how to grade, it was already on the holder. Raw coins presented a problem though, now they had to figure out a grade before they could resell it. So they make their best guess and hope it flies.
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