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1793 S10 Wreath Large Cent Electrotype Copy

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oih82w8's Avatar
United States
7840 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  09:36 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add oih82w8 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I did not think that it was ethical to sell known (unmarked) "COPY" coins.

I am not endorsing nor promoting this "item", just passing along educational information to help us better understand some of the techniques used in producing valuable coinage.

"1793 S10 Wreath Large Cent, Electrotype COPY. This is an old, well-executed electrotype copy with VG10+ details. Very nice medium brown color and mostly smooth surfaces, overall a very nice example that would fool many people, although the seam on the edge is a dead giveaway. Ex-Goldberg's 09/04/11 lot #539."

1793-S10-Wreath-Large-Cent-Electrotype-Copy

http://www.earlycoppercoins.com/179...p_1090.html#
Edited by oih82w8
08/23/2012 10:56 am
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Drsandman2's Avatar
United States
1374 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  10:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Drsandman2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I find that pretty disturbing. Coins like this seem to be fooling people everyday on ebay. And it is $299?
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Electrotypes are not your run-of-the-mill Asian counterfeits and there is nothing unethical about selling one as long as it is disclosed as being an electrotype.

Electrotypes are high quality reproductions made of coins that are typically very valuable or essentially non-collectible due to rarity. Conder101 gave an excellent explanation of the process in a different post the other day so I will copy that-

Quote:
Normally an electro is made from a nice or high grade coin unless you are dealing with a very rare coin that just isn't available nice. The coin is pressed into a casting medium, typically wax because it creates a very precise impression, and the impression is made conductive with a layer of graphite dust and it is then electroplated with copper to build up a thin shell. A shell is made of either side, the shells are filled with lead and the two shells joined together. Sometimes the seam on the edge is dressed up a bit and electroplated as well. A really good quality electro can reproduce the surfaces so well that the electros of the 1840 to 49 Half Cents even reproduce the mirrored surfaces.


As you can see, it is not a quick or simple process nor does it lend itself to mass-production. The fact that you need an original example is also a major hurdle to illegitimate counterfeiters. The process was primarily used in the early days of copper collecting in the 1800s and those period electrotypes are quite collectible to this day, as seen by the asking price of $299. It is also worth noting that Shawn Yancey is a high-end EAC dealer and the asking price is reasonable given that an original example is a $6000 coin.
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vermontensium's Avatar
United States
16679 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  12:25 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and well said.
swcoin.ecrater.com
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oih82w8's Avatar
United States
7840 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  1:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oih82w8 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good points Bio, thanks for the "edification"!
Edited by oih82w8
08/23/2012 1:09 pm
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  1:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Aye some electrotypes are quite valuable. Where I wouldn't pay $300 for that specimen, I wouldn't see it going for less than $150 at auction.
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OldSkoolMadSkilz's Avatar
United States
2077 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OldSkoolMadSkilz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can't compare it to one in my collection. Shouldn't it have a lettered edge? Guess that can't be done in the electrotype mold.
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  3:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Aye, edge lettering would have to be milled on afterwards.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are not some of the coins in Dr. Maris's NJ book pictured electrotypes?
The Maris 1881 photograph is called the Maris Plate-I Photograph and is a picture of an actual plate made up of the known die varieties of the NJ coins using real coins, electrotypes of coins and possibly photographs of coins. Each die variety is indicated by a specific number (for the obverse dies) or letter (for the reverse dies). The die combinations are shown by ligature lines draw between the relevant obverse and reverse dies. Once the Maris Plate-I was photographed, it was disassembled and no known portion of this plate is known to exist at this time.
I am starting to get irritated with these Chinese counterfeiters for different reasons. They are creating a real negative tone to contemporary counterfeits, casts, electrotypes and other forms of false coins used in their respective periods used for coinage and educational purposes. Actually Steve Caruso my true feelings can't be posted here due to something called a "MONITOR."

John Lorenzo
United States
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  3:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Steve - I have a solution. We give up on raw coins and we all go down to Texas and bid on CC Dollars in a slab auction for the remainder of our lives like good little BRAIN DEAD coin collectors we are all turning into ... now ... a... days.

JPL
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Moe145's Avatar
United States
8904 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  4:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Moe145 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a couiple of electrotypes I have (No, I can' afford the real things...)


Fake 1793 Chain Large Cent

1793-S10-Wreath-Large-Cent-Electrotype-Copy 1793-S10-Wreath-Large-Cent-Electrotype-Copy


Fake 1793 Wreath Large Cent

1793-S10-Wreath-Large-Cent-Electrotype-Copy 1793-S10-Wreath-Large-Cent-Electrotype-Copy
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Drsandman2's Avatar
United States
1374 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  4:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Drsandman2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are a couple of my concerns:

Selling this coin is ethical if you disclose it is a fake; however, there is a huge incentive for people not to disclose that info. Further, down the line someone who does not know anything about coins will end up with these electrotypes and subsequently attempt to sell them as genuine.

It was mentioned that it is extremely labor intensive and expensive to make. What is to stop the Chinese from making an electrotype from an electrotype? To assume that the Chinese will never have to ability to produce a lot of these, I think would be a mistake.

Wonder what the above coin would sell for on ebay in a fake slab.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  4:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its like drugs ... someone is always going to get hurt for various reasons. Beginners should buy the book, collect strictly slabs and then after some expereince branch out and buy raw coins for a bigger profit than is generally gotten from slab purchasing as you normally pay to dollar in an high auction or competitive setting. Unfortunately, their inexpereince prevents this logical transition. Early Date LC electrotypes are highly collectible ... as you already know.

JPL
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