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How To Detect Artificial Toning And Other Thoughts...

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Pillar of the Community

Sweden
729 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2012  4:24 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add epikur to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
...or maybe I should say "toning due to intentional human interference"

If storing a coin in a certain way tones it, is it ungradable if the person storing knew it would tone the coin? would that make it ungradable?

If it is stored, and an unintentinal toning occurs, would that make it less "artificially toned"? Would that make all the Morgans stored in the US Mint bags artificially toned?


anyways, abount detecting the intentianl toning: Would that sort of toning be more homogeneous on the coin? And not go through all the different colors of the toning process I read about somewhere? Or are those color changes only related to the US Mint bags sulphuric toning? Should be other chemicals that tone a coin. I have 8 Morgans in an old Wayte Raymond holder, and that toning differs alot from the sulphuric toning; It's more golden brown. Would that be a different compound that tones it, or is sulphur the only toning element out there?

My I'm asking is because I have a really nicely toned Morgan. Main color is pinkish purple, covering the whole coin, both sides. Around the edges a more bark blue tone, and that color is also visible in streaks within the pinkish purple...

It would be hard to artificially tone those darker streaks within a lighter color...at least my common sense tells me that...


I would appreciate any and all input regarding the topic...
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2012  4:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is no easy answer to your questions. For all but the most obvious AT, it is and will always be a subjective decision on the part of the observer. No doubt many NT coins have been rejected by the TPG's, and vice versa.

There are no hard and fast rules.


Quote:
If it is stored, and an unintentinal toning occurs, would that make it less "artificially toned"?


That tends to be what natural toning is defined by.

Toning is a chemical process, and it tends to follow a definite progression of specific colors. That helps. Trouble is, there are exceptions caused by (for example) moving the coin from one environment to another where the toning process follows a different course.

There are no real rules regarding toning - only exceptions.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16810 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2012  5:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Part of the problem is, toning (either intentional or unintentional) is caused by chemistry, and chemicals can't read your mind, so they don't know whether the chemical reactions they are undergoing are "intentional" or not. Nor can they remember their own past. "Artificial toning", when done properly, uses exactly the same chemicals that cause "natural" toning. The results look identical to "natural toning" and are chemically indistinguishable.

The TPGs don't have time machines and can't read minds, either, so the only judgement they can make is a subjective, comparative one based on how the coin in front of them looks, right now. If it looks much the same as all the other coins they've already graded, then it passes. This is why coins that have been exposed to unusual environments for prolonged periods and wind up with "weird but natural" toning, get rejected by the TPGs, while the alchemist's doctored coins pass with flying colours.

Therefore, they (and you) can only be certain of detecting AT when it's done poorly: using chlorine bleach, for example, or cigarette smoke. Both can produce an effect that looks kind-of-like normal toning, but is chemically very distinct: not only will the coin smell different, but the chemical scanners deployed by the TPGs can detect the difference in surface compounds easily.
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mdpmedia's Avatar
United States
3546 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2012  5:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello,

I believe SsuperDdave pulled similar wording right out of my mouth as I was composing the following:

This type of hobby often produces a great deal of subjectivity when grading coins and attempting to determine what actually caused a particular effect in the past.

With that being said one could possibly conceive that the unnatural toning of any coin is somewhat analogous to the pressing of a paper bill.

When dealing with the physical state of coins or currency the question one must pose is,

"Does the final condition appear natural enough to discredit any underlying skepticism void of any concrete evidence of proven alterations?"

In the case of pressed currency, for example, if the surface appears perfectly flat with no seams present how can anyone possibly prove that a pressing process was involved as a factor earlier in the life of the bill?

Equally, if a coin has questionable toning that appears identical to another toned coin arising from ‘traceable' sources, how can one prove that an unknown entity utilized artificial toning means in the past?

I would just say that you are on your own in these types of cases and that paying for someone's opinion would be a waste of money unless the company is willing to ‘financially' guarantee their decision...

IMHO,
mdpmedia

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IHPO8S's Avatar
United States
374 Posts
 Posted 11/19/2012  9:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IHPO8S to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i bought 15 AE unc coins back in 2000. The person was a Federal poliecman in washington DC. For whatever reason he stored them wrapped up with blue paper towels. They were the same ones used in gas stations by mechanics. They all had really pretty toning on them some more than others. I have no pics and the coins are all sold. I bought 2 morgans on ebay years ago that were suposedly end of roll toned coins. They looked liked someone had put a torh on them. I keptthem because I didnt pay a premium for the toning. I buy alot of toned coins and if I like them who cares if AT or not. Next time I go to my box I will grab some and shoot some pictures.
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