Haven't posted much at all lately, some threads I'd really like to comment on/add to when I afford myself the time... Had to post this, though, as it's something specific I've wondered about for a while and it's never really been fleshed out on here.
A coin has popped up on
ebay which has re-piqued my interest in possible cast replicas having been produced from better quality El Cazador salvaged 1783-dated Mexico 8R. As you may know, huge numbers of this date/mint came from this wreck - and accordingly, the overwhelming majority of sea salvage Mex 1783 8R on the market did indeed from this wreck (OCCASIONALLY, you'll a 1783 from the Hartwell wreck, though usually have a somewhat different look to them, due to alternate environmental setting/conservation methods).
Swamperbob has alluded to repros of El Cazador pieces existing...
https://goccf.com/t/75202#606296Aside from that, having accumulated a large amount of El Caz material (actually was my gateway into collecting reales-system material) and by now being pretty familiar with what genuine sea-salvage roughness or porosity "should" present like (as compared to a passably similar appearance often seen on casts), I've come across some 1783 "salvage-type" pcs. that I think are actually CAST repros of salvaged pieces. For example:
I have photos of quite a few others that I think are either somewhat or highly suspect... What I'm looking for is an overall "soft" appearance (through whatever effects the sea could wreak on a piece). Another unusual feature that sets off alarm bells for me is when a specimen displays a fully/near fully intact rim/edge area - that is, not corroded away - all the way around the coin in spite of the coin's obv and rev showing moderate roughness/porosity. Sometimes you will see contrastingly bold denticles as part of this effect. Why is this odd? Think about how these coins were stored, and how that dictates exposure to the elements. Also, you sometimes see a look of even "micro-porosity" hiding in plain sight among the more classically "shipwreck" roughness. Of course, to the untrained eye, the former can easily pass for the latter....
My linchpin for these is one I saw a few months back in a "Postal Commem. Society" holder. Just about EVERY 8R in these holders that I've seen clear pics of is a fairly obvious fake, yet this has been the only El Caz-type (or salvaged-looking in general) that I've seen in one to date.
Beyond that, I have a pic of a cast repro 1783 (stamped "copy") that looks like it was cast from a salvage piece... plus another NON-marked piece with the same look that absolutely MUST be a cast as well. If nothing else, these two prove that someone at least has had the idea to replicate these pieces:
Now look at this piece on
ebay. Seller is an honest guy and fairly conscientious; amongst hundreds perfectly genuine of Spanish pieces I've seen him list, I have pointed out two known fake cobs to him - which he immediately pulled down. Note that he points out that these were hanging out with a few other "pedigreed" El Caz pieces (though when referring to "newer" material like El Caz stuff, especially in this age of
ebay cross-pollenation, that means little).
Of course, I could be totally wrong on this piece... it's just hard to tell from a photo (even this clear), OR in general... which is the point. I do, however, see the usual suspect features, plus an broad weak area (weak areas aren't unknown on Mex 8R of this date range, but this looks "odd"), and a very peculiar crack between A and N is HISPAN.
ebay #
160928363395
Posted 12/06/2012 06:37 am
