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 Replies: 13 / Views: 1,357 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
751 Posts |
Susan's thread and some of the responses turned my thoughts to a familiar question. Rather than hijacking her thread, I thought I'd start a new one.
Let's restrict ourselves to circulated coins, say F to XF. Let's say that there is a nice, natural-looking patina. On an XF coin, maybe it's pretty white with some lustre.
I seem to recall reading optimal magnifications for grading--something like 4x to 7x? Let's say that under 4x magnification, no hairlines are evident. But under 10x and bright light, hairlines with a common orientation are evident.
Some locals at my coin club who have been around the hobby for a long time said that I was being much too picky. The hairlines were just evidence of circulation (as is brushed from going into a pocket).
So do you have (know of) a metric for determining how much hairlines need to stand out in order to be considered evidence of mistreatment rather than circulation? At what level of magnification? At what level of preservation/grade does any amount of hairlines become unacceptable?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I'm thinking that your original reading was right. Cleaning hairlines are easily seen under a 5x loupe in the right light. If greater magnification than that is required to see any lines, I myself would begin to think they're not the result of anything deliberate.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
751 Posts |
Thank you for your thoughts, Dave.
I had hoped to elicit more responses. I am surprised that the distinction between cleaned and circulated is unambiguous to so many. I have much to learn.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1173 Posts |
Hey...we should start a photo album on this forum of "problem coins" with a brief explanation of why we feel this or that particular coin was cleaned and how. That way we'd all have a library of examples to learn from. Any takers? I've got a French Franc that my mom cleaned with a polish of some sort that I could post.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
I think the members of your coin club are correct. You are becoming to picky. If this is a hobby to you, don't get carried away with nit picky stuff that may require a 50,000 power electron microscope to detect.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
834 Posts |
I think anything more then a 5x is getting to picky, I have a stereo microscope and I can take a ms-70 coin put it in my microscope and find something wrong with that coin. A 5x is all you need in my opinion if you get to picky you will never have a collection at least that's the way it seems to me.
Bruce.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1173 Posts |
For example the following French Franc was cleaned (by my Mother...who got it from my grandfather...and who thought it "looked tarnished." The lines from the abrasive cleaner are very evident to the unaided eye (in good light) and are unmistakable under any magnification at all. It's still a pretty coin, and I am glad to have what was once owned by my great grandfather.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
751 Posts |
Hunter: you say your mom thought the coin looked tarnished. How did she feel about it after she cleaned it?  Did she clean another, or did she realize her error? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1173 Posts |
She was quite proud of herself  and proceded to clean a large Canadian penney. My mom was NOT a coin collector...just proud to have some things from my grandparent's estates. I'm glad to have them, too...just wish they hadn't been cleaned. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
751 Posts |
I'm with you, Hunter--thanks for sharing  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1173 Posts |
Here's the Canadian Large Cent my mom cleaned. The uneven toning is the result of the cleaning I would think.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
Cleaning with some sort of abasive material, or just rubbing good with a polishing cloth would leave evidence to my way of thinking, circulation marks will be in random directionality, cleaning more uniform. But what about "dipped" coins? Severe and repeated dipping will destroy the luster, true; and freshly dipped coins will lack the toning in the highlights...it will have the same bright tone overall; but what about a coin that was dipped 10 years ago and has naturally "retoned" to erase the smooth overall shine of a fresh dipped coin?
I know dipping is anathema for the purist, but I have some coins in my personal collection that are just for my pleasure that have been dipped, maybe to remove a unsightly fingerprint from the center of a BU coin, to me it looks better without the unsightly smudge on the cheek of say a Morgaon Dollar.
Anything I may have for trade, resell, etc is kept in its natural state and I will let whoever gets it to decide on what to do with it then.
Personally, I do not see anything wrong with dipping an unsightly coin that you are holding in your private collection to improve your own viewing pleasure, but it should never be overdone, once is all that should ever be needed if you handle your coins right. JMHO.
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
Since I have to take digital pics of the coins that are consigned to us, I use those pics to determine cleaning. I have had coins that looked great to the naked eye and then every hairline shows up in the pics. Digital photos don't lie. I don't think you are being too picky. Some collectors just hate the idea of having any cleaned coin in their collection. There is also the question of whizzing. Whizzing will leave a lot of hairlines, but the coin will appear to have luster remaining. The really hard one to determine is whether you are looking at a coin that has an overpolished planchet rather than has actually been cleaned. These can only be determined through digital pics or magnification. There will be numerous hairlines all going in the same direction but they do not continue on the devices, they go under the devices. These coins are often mistaken for being cleaned when, in fact, they came out of the Mint in this condition. Circulation lines are completely different. You will see random hairlines and they will generally not all go in the same direction. Sorry it took so long to respond to this thread. This is the first day in a week that I've been able to come on the forum and just enjoy myself. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
655 Posts |
I hope my post isn't too far off topic, but another trick to look out for is polished coins. I bought some florins that looked really shiny in the small pics and seemed to show reasonable detail in the Queen's hair which is a wear point. When I got them though I thought they looked a bit "funny". On close examination the matt finish was polished off as was some detail. The biggest give away from polishing on these coins though was worn denticles. The tops are completely worn flat. The first 2 pics are the polished Florin and the last 2 an untouched Florin for comparison. Image:  polishwidej.jpg51 KB Image: polishclosej.jpg59.21 KB Image: uncwidej.jpg49.07 KB Image: uncclosej.jpg56.45 KB |
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Replies: 13 / Views: 1,357 |
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Posted 04/06/2007 09:39 am
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