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1907 Phillipines-Us Silver Peso, Is It Genuine?

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silverdollar2011's Avatar
United States
385 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2013  8:34 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add silverdollar2011 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hey guys, I found this Philippines Peso, it weighed in at around 19.68g when it should weigh 20g when fresh out of the mint.
What do you guys think?
1907-Phillipines-Us-Silver-Peso,-Is-It-Genuine?
1907-Phillipines-Us-Silver-Peso,-Is-It-Genuine?
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2013  9:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
silverdollar2011 Hello - Personally I like the coin, if I saw it at a reasonable price (about melt) I would definitely buy it. It could make a great study coin.

However, if you are looking for a real example of that coin you need to address a few issues. I am troubled by the appearance of the coin and at least one other person was also. I am of course referring to the guy that made the test cut on the rim. The V groove is visible two dentils counter-clockwise from the S in FILIPINAS and two dentils clockwise from the first A in AMERICA. A test cut like that which crosses the entire width of the coin usually means someone wanted a sample of the metal for destructive testing.

Second, the 1907-S issue was made in San Francisco and the margin of this coin simply looks too wide to be an original. Remember when older cast impressions dried they shrunk in size necessitating the addition of a fraction of a mm all around the circumference. This was done so the coin would not stand out in a stack. A coin that was too large or small in diameter or thickness stood out like a sore thumb when stacked on a counting board.

Now both of those features could be pointing to a possible Circulating Contemporary Counterfeit. That would be a good thing from my perspective - better than a Modern Chinese knock-off.

The next issue is the edge itself - it should be reeded using a collar die - have you examined the reeding for evidence of (1) an overlap (2) split tail or split top reeds or (3) irregular reed spacing.

I see you weighed the coin and the result is just a bit LOW for wear. Is the coin porous? Have you done a specific gravity test to determine density?

The coin appears to have been buried for some time and it may have been acid tested on the surface twice. The streaks on the eagle side look like wet fast corrosion like you see with acid.
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Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2013  9:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't like the look of it. Can you please post an edge of the coin?
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
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Pandesalapi's Avatar
Philippines
386 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  07:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi silverdollar2011, the coin you have posted is a 1907-s Philippines-US One peso coin with its normal wear. Its mintage is 10,218,000 pcs. 1907-s is a San Francisco mint coin. There are only 2 pcs known to exist regarding a 1907 USPI one peso coin. To know the difference between a 1907-s and a 1907 One peso, If there is the small letter "s" you will find below the left dot on its date, then it's a 1907-s One peso. A 1907 One peso proof coin does not have the letter S. Only 2 pcs known to exist means its an ultra rare Philippine coin.
New Member
United States
1 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2013  2:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JOHNMAN to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks 100% Real to me. The detail looks too good to be fake but I am not an expert. The wear accounts for the small loss of weight. Please check the size, should be 39mm. If the size is right and the weight that close I think you are in good shape. It should be 80% Silver, total silver weight of 0.5114 grams. Also check to see if you get the normal ring sound that silver makes.
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Arkie's Avatar
United States
2637 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2013  6:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
total silver weight of 0.5114 grams

Wow, those 1907 pesos are a lot smaller than I remember.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2013  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
JOHNMAN Hello

The basic issue with the 1907 S Peso is that there are a ton of fakes on the market and that caution should always be exercised when dealing with any coin that was test cut on the rim or tested with acid.

I believe the coin is a modern counterfeit. That is my own considered opinion and you of course are entitled to believe as you will.

There is however, one statement you made that you might want to address a bit more closely.


Quote:
The wear accounts for the small loss of weight.


The loss of weight in this case is 0.32 grams from normal. This is a loss of 1.6% of total weight and that is not small. I would expect the coin to be considerably heavier because the wear loss here due to abrasion effects should be less than half of what is reported.

Loss of weight due to wear was a key reason why counterfeiters made most of their coins appear to be worn. They knew and still know that the average person has not done weight to wear studies to determine actual losses. When presented with a worn coin the average person will believe that a lower weight is acceptable. In that way a slightly thickened debased coin that looked worn could be passed off as silver. See for reference:
Money and the Mechanism of Exchange (New York: D. Appleton and Co. 1876) by William Stanley Jevons.

In the days when silver and gold coins were of INTRINSIC value and not mere tokens (fiat value) the acceptable limits of loss were rather small. That is why coin relief is always very low. When a coin wears to About Good (total rim loss on a collared strike) it was no longer acceptable as circulating money. For dollar sized silver coins retirement (or devaluation by actual weight) occurred with as little as a 2.5% loss of weight. Average actual wear observed at the mint for incoming worn silver dollar coins was only 3.1%.

Three Cents mattered.

The coin here is NOT about 1/2 way to AG - far from it.

I recognize that this coin was made after intrinsic value had been replaced by fiat value but the wear standards for retirement based on appearance were not altered for silver coins when the coins ceased to be intrinsic items.

Gold coins were far more sensitive to the effects of abrasion loss. That is why gold worn to AG levels is rather rare.
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United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2013  7:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The loss of weight in this case is 0.32 grams from normal. This is a loss of 1.6% of total weight and that is not small. I would expect the coin to be considerably heavier because the wear loss here due to abrasion effects should be less than half of what is reported.


Bob, I had a bunch of worn Barber halves a few years back... mostly just honest heavy wear on them... typical junk Barbers. Many of the heavily worn ones were down to 11.5g or so, a full gram off the prescribed weight of 12.5g. A couple were even a tenth or two below 11.5.

I would think a 0.32g loss here - looking at not terrible, but some circulation wear, combined with some environmental effects - is absolutely reasonable.

Also, I'm surprised no one has suggested the usual culprit with these - Manila Bay salvage.
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
United States
36770 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2013  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks good to me. This one could have been sea salvaged.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2013  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher - the loss of 1 gram of weight on a 12.5 gram coin is an 8% loss of weight which I agree is observed on very badly worn half dollar coins that grade About Good. Dimes can actually lose over 12%. The smaller the coin the greater the percentage potential weight loss due to wear. That is why the Dollar coins were used by banks when they were available instead of holding minor coins as reserve.

This is a dollar sized coin and a 1/3rd gram loss of weight should result in grade of VG. I would estimate that no more than 1/10th gram would be lost getting this coin to this grade (which I place at EF by wear). The coin would be retired at a loss of 1.3 grams because a value loss of 5 cents was too high to circulate.

Weight to wear as a ratio is NOT proportional to grade. The weight loss between grades is far higher at the low end of the scale than at the higher.

In this case, there is of course a possibility of sea salvage but that description is used to cover many counterfeits and unless a coin is immersed for decades the weight loss is not really too high. You are allowing a 2/10 gram loss due to erosion and yet the surfaces are essentially intact. I thin that 0.32 gram loss is excessive for what I see.

In this case, I do not hold out much hope of a genuine coin because the corners are rounded, the surfaces look dead like a casting and the fine (protected) details in the hair are weak like a transfer image.
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