Modern Proof Maria Theresa Thaler?

Here's a clearer pic of the reverse:

chrisild- Thanks for the link! It is good to know that these are now being sold as though souvenirs as opposed to mere trade bullion pieces these days.

Does anyone know if my example is just a common, modern piece minted in Austria?

Just checked Guenter has it as H62 on his web site.

Now this next bit is more akin to thinking out loud.

I really appreciate the work done by Hafner but I do find his way of cataloging the re-strikes has some weakness'. Hafner ordered his catalog alphabetically by Mint signature. The first restrike in his catalog dates to 1788-90 (Karlsburg: AH-GS) On ocassion I have seen that some people have been confused by this and have actually thought that Hafner 1 is the first restrike.

Other researchers prior to Hafner did not catalog each and every variety but rather designated "types". Initially I thought that typing was less useful than Hafners approach but recently I have been reversing my opinion. Collecting MTT is built around the art of collecting varieties but, IMHO, not every variety is "born equal". Some varietal differences ( like Archraz's Venice find) are important but others, in relation to the MTTs story, are not. For example, As discussed on another thread, H49 is a "catch all" label covering an uninteresting uniform period(1853 - 1900) of MTT production. There are many different sub varieties under the H49 label, however machine produced differences are minor and in terms of numismatics unimportant. In comparison the the period 1780-1805 also sees a great many varieties but the majority(IMHO not all) of these are important because they map the evolution of the MTT into the modern form.


If one takes Hafner's approach to the extreme one would be for ever adding minor variations.....some might even argue one should add each and every die crack variety.

Forgive my ramble: I have been thinking for a long time about how better to catalog the MTT variants and not surprising every approach has to be a compromise!

Back to the proof: I have yet to actually go off to the Vienna mint and establish when proofs were first struck: I suspect it was post 1984. The Gold Abschlag issue for Haille Selassie in 1926 was not a proof strike. I know that a 1940/41 Bombay trial strike was produced on a polished blank ( The Royal Mint has subsequently lost (hopefully just within their filing system) that coin). I have a late(1950s) Paris mint strike that appears to have been, at the least, made from polished blanks.

I would assume like you that it is post 86 perhaps it would be even better just to say post 1980. I say that because it just might be possible( educated speculation on my part) the Proofs started being produced on the 200th anniversary of Maria Theresa's death. In 1983 Hall mint produced 3000 MTT of which 50 ( I have never seen one for sale) had the Hall mint mark "F" placed above the standard Mint signature "SF" it is quite possible those Hall mint coins were proofs but Hafner doesn't record this. I just checked the foundation reference Leypold( specifically his 1987 update article) and unfortunately he only focuses on 18th and 19th century strikes. I assume the strike information will be in the Vienna numismatic societies newsletter of 1983-1984 but unfortunately I haven't got those news letters.

In Numismatic literature there are two time frames where much of the information about the MTT is concentrated. 1872-early 1890s then again 1976-late 1980s Those time frames are obviously coinciding with The centennial and bi centennial of Maria Theresa's death and that is mentioned in some of the papers from that time. {So you can see why I speculate that proofs may date back to 1980}

I am fairly sure( but anything is possible) proofs were not produced pre 1961 ( When via international acquiescence(Even the Brits maintained they had the right to produce the coin but stated they would stop producing so long as British companies had access to the MTT from Vienna) Vienna regained sole minting rights). From 1935 to 1960 Italy had the predominant right to produce the MTT( Vienna mint was restricted to a maximum mintage of 10,000)

Hi Guys, I got my first MTT and just wanted to get your thoughts if it is just a newer restrike worth the silver melt value.
it weights 28.05g. Looking at the http://www.theresia.name/en/index.html , I think this is a restrike after 1853. Could some one confirm ?

plonker, can you show the pictures of the eagle's beak (left one)? How many dots does it have, 11 or 12? I have a MTT, said to be 1932-35 and another MTT said to be post 1865, they are very similar for the saltire and the edge arabesque, the only difference is the number of dots inside the eagle's beak. Probably this is a clue to determine the year struck of the MTT. I will show you one or two days later. Henry

"I have never used Acetone on coins , so that will also be a fun thing to try out."

I've only just started the practice of soaking all my new acquisitions ( and old ones) in Acetone for 1-2 days.One important variety with some really stubborn PVC deposits has been soaking for 4 days. I Have have read online some recommending you also use a cotton swap to lift the stubborn stains but I am nervous about adding hairline scratches. So that I don't cause any more damage to a coin a long acetone bath is all I allow. The Acetone doesn't damage the toning and with patience it seems to dissolve noticeable PVC deposits. Actually some of my well toned coins come out of the soak looking much better. It seems to lift all the,not previously noticed by me, grease and grime while leaving the toning and patina as is.

OK the first one is not from the 1932-25 vintage the legend is too far away from the Rim and the diameter is to large the 1932 -35 strikes were consistently 39.5 mm. With out examining the coin its hard to pick exactly which variety it is is most likely 1890 - 1930 vintage.

the second one you have attributed correctly. There is little difference in the edges so both coins are from the same period.


As an aside in the early 20th century ( I am going from Memory rather than digging through my files) the Vienna mint did establish a Minting machine that would impress the Edge at the same time as the two sides I have yet to confirm it but I believe the edges of coins from that period have blurred ill formed lettering and decorations. Both Henrys coins show clearly well struck edges so hence I believe both date to the period leading up to the first world war.

As for the gaps between the dots on the edge...... Each dot marks the end of an edge iron the gap, I imagine, can just be a result of a slightly larger Blank or a mint worker setting up the edge machine slightly differently. The edge dots are only useful for identifying a small number of varieties. Up to 1865 there is only one dot between ET Clementia on Vienna struck MTT( in other words they only put the dot on the edge iron that had "Justitia Et" and missed it off the start of the Iron that had Clementia.
The other time it is important is sorting out Birmingham strikes (Very hard to find) from Brussels strikes. Birmingham used dies made at the Brussels mint and the only difference is on the edge( Birmingham strikes) where at one meeting point there is only one dot. The reason for the small difference is Birmingham developed a slightly better edging method( it simplified the setting up of the edging machine) than Brussels I don't know what the method was I just read correspondence between The Royal Mint and the Birmingham mint where they were sharing information on how to strike the edges and Birmingham lent Royal Mint the technology for a brief period so the London mint technicians could examine it. I have heard there is a Birmingham mint strike with a London mint edge.. that would be an exciting, for me, coin to see as it would evidence that the sharing went in two directions.

Now someone reading this will be asking why in the world did Birmingham mint use Brussels Dies? The simple answer is the Banking House Samuel Montigue & Co was the sole customer of the Birmingham mint. When The Royal Mint started producing the coin in 1937 there were supply problems and SM asked the Brussels mint to produce the coin. The dies actually belonged to SM and after WWII they decided to have Birmingham produce the coin for the English Silver market. SM purchased coins from all three mints. Until the mid 1950s when the Sultan of Oman, having been given a Tour of The Royal Mint demanded, from that time on, Royal Mint MTT only. This caused some problems for the Royal Airforce( they were stationed in Omman and from the outset of WWII they had purchased MTT from Samuel Montague and co). They only found out about the Royal mints production when the Sultan made his decision and unfortunately the Royal Airforce had large stocks( it was amusing reading the Royal Air Force files from that time). They ended up dropping SM as a supplier so ending Brussels and Birmingham production around 1957)