Modern Proof Maria Theresa Thaler? - Page 2

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Author	Replies: 416 / Views: 98,243	Page: of 28

Archraz Pillar of the Community United States 3499 Posts	Posted 01/23/2013 6:08 pm Very interesting thread! Today I actually picked up a new MTT, and I suspect that it is Austrian and fairly modern since it has two dots on the band of the inner shield. Is this non-proof example also a Hafner # 62? Report this Post to the Staff
austrokiwi Pillar of the Community 2087 Posts	Posted 01/24/2013 07:17 am To be honest I would just be guessing All I could say is it is highly likely. I would actually think that proofs should be cataloged differently but they are not. When I collect MTTS I am looking at the following break down of the last 270 (aprox) years: Period 1: 1741- 1779 reasonably easy( not very affordable though) to find except for the period 1777-1779 where examples are very hard to find. Period 2: 1780 strikes Extremely rare not more than 30-40 known examples. From Vienna (15-20 coins with 2-4 sub-varieties), Prague (1 variety with 2 known coins) and Guenzburg ( currently only one probable variety with 3 known examples in the market. I say "probable" as someone needs to do an edge comparison with a 1779 to hopefully find a match ( by no means certain that such a match can be found). A Match would prove the 1780 strike date a no match would prove nothing unfortunately! Period 3:1781 -1805 (the end date being the closure of the Guenzburg mint. Period 4: 1806-1850 Period 5: 1850( actually 53) to 1932) this for me is an uninteresting period and like other MTT specialist collectors I don't really pay much attention to coins from this period. Period 6: 1932-1961. This is the time frame that saw Rome London, Bombay, Calcutta, Paris, Brussels, and Utrecht mints producing the coin ( all after their Respective gvts decided that under international law it was legal). There was also a private Swiss strike in 1937 ( I am not sure exactly what the identification features are but I have strong suspicions that they are the same as a gold Abschlag MTT produced at the same time for the American market. The best place to find examples of the Gold Abschlag is actually the US. If any one is interested I can post a picture of this 73.04 gram gold coin. The rarities in this period are; Utrecht only two coins known to exist in the Utrecht mint Museum (Another 60 might still exist), the rest of the mintage was destroyed, Paris mint first variety (1937-41) very hard to find, and Birmingham mint. Period 7 1961-current time apart from a couple of error coins { a 1960s spelling error "ARGHID" instead of "ARCHID", and a 2003/2004 edge error when the edge iron with "Clementia" on it was installed upside down. My focus in collecting and research to-date has been on periods 1-4 & 6. Periods 5 and 7 are for me uninteresting periods and my knowledge is very weak. That said I would like to know more about the fifth period but the Vienna mint records no longer exist, and apart from the English expedition to Ethiopia mostly the period is boring with respect to MTT History and numismatics. Edited by austrokiwi 01/24/2013 08:44 am Report this Post to the Staff
Archraz Pillar of the Community United States 3499 Posts	Posted 01/24/2013 12:45 pm austrokiwi- Good to know! Thanks! I think that you may have gotten me hooked on Maria Theresa Thalers. Report this Post to the Staff
Archraz Pillar of the Community United States 3499 Posts	Posted 01/25/2013 4:21 pm austrokiwi- Thanks for all of the info and great help throughout this thread. Here is another of my MTTs, and I'm fairly sure that this coin is also 20th century, but some of the details, such as the roses on the edge and the configuration of the dots in the eagle's mouth seems dissimilar to those that I posted above. Although worn, it does seem to have the Vienna dots, but I wonder if this example is from earlier in the 20th century. Any help would be appreciated! Report this Post to the Staff
Archraz Pillar of the Community United States 3499 Posts	Posted 01/25/2013 5:47 pm Also, I forgot to mention that this particular MTT is about 41mm, which is in fact wider than the Hafner# 62 coins that I posted above. Report this Post to the Staff
Archraz Pillar of the Community United States 3499 Posts	Posted 01/26/2013 01:56 am Here are a few additional images of the reverse that may be of use when IDing the variety: Report this Post to the Staff
austrokiwi Pillar of the Community 2087 Posts	Posted 01/26/2013 03:06 am Well that's an interesting one and it was a bit of a challenge to attribute. I had to go and dig through my my collection to find which one it is. Luckily the "T" in Theresia and the unique edge arabesques gave me a clear pointer as to which variety it is. >>>>>It was a good idea to post all those photos Or I might not have been able to ID it( It took nearly an hour as my morning coffee hadn't cut in). Now there is one further check you need to do to confirm this attribution. Check the length of "IUSTITIA" on the edge( I use a Flexible plastic tape measure, from my wifes sewing kit). It can be hard to measure accurately on the edge so a quick comparison with another MTT would help. I am 90% confident you will find JUSTITIA is 14 mm (ie: much shorter in length that is usual). My confidence is based on the unique arabesques on the edge. If it is as I suspect make sure, how ever you store it, that you clearly identify it so it doesn't get mixed up with other MTT of lesser import. ( recently my example of H50 got lost in my collection of MTT it took hours of hunting to find where I had misplaced it in the coin box it had ended up with some bullion MTT) Hafner identifies this one as Hafner 50 struck in either Vienna or Italy. Frustratingly I know that some dealers here in Austria believe it actually dates to the 1840s and was struck in Prague...but so far no one can tell me the background to that earlier attribution. What I do know is the coin is the cheapest of a group of very rare varieties (all from the same mint). When I say cheap my example cost me â‚¬160.00(I am betting you paid bullion value for your example) and 3 years of hunting. Here is the relevant page on Guenters Web site: http://www.theresia.name/cgi-bin/Token.cgi?Page=11 Now the group, yours is the first example of, is made up of H50(a & b), H51 ( my example cost me â‚¬800.00 and took five years to find), and, I suspect, H53( Still looking after 10 years). Note: H 52 doesn't belong in this sub group. Looking at your photos I believe yours would be 50a with the open diadem but you will need to check this. Market value in Europe â‚¬150(US$200)-â‚¬250(US$336.00) the reason for the large value range is simply that there is a small group(as a sub set of coin collectors) of collectors of MTT world wide, Sold in a German speaking country online you could find a bidding war would ensue but the competition would start to fade around the top level I have indicated. The US would be the hardest market to sell it in and you might only get the lower value. IMHO opinion that coin is a keeper!! What a brilliant find!! Edited by austrokiwi 01/26/2013 03:16 am Report this Post to the Staff
wonghinghi Pillar of the Community Hong Kong 1270 Posts	Posted 01/26/2013 05:53 am Hi, I have another MTT that I suppose a H50a specimen. But when compared with Archraz's piece, there is a slight difference in the eagle's beak - the number of dots and pattern are both in difference. Can my piece be a H50a also? Other data of my MTT, 28.06 grams, 41.3mm in diameter, the length of "IUSTITIA"=14mm. Two dots in the central sheild. Report this Post to the Staff
austrokiwi Pillar of the Community 2087 Posts	Posted 01/26/2013 07:33 am Yes that is also a H50a. Report this Post to the Staff
wonghinghi Pillar of the Community Hong Kong 1270 Posts	Posted 01/26/2013 09:19 am I recognize that there is one of the nail of a claw of the eagle (red circle of the above picture) is curved. This is the most prominent feature I can observe for the modern MTTs. So Archraz claimed his second MTT as H62 is correct. Am I correct to make this conclusion? Henry Report this Post to the Staff
Archraz Pillar of the Community United States 3499 Posts	Posted 01/26/2013 1:40 pm austrokiwi- Awesome! Thanks for the help! And, yes, you are totally right that "IUSTICIA" on the edge is only 14mm. I did in fact just get it at bullion just recently. I saw it in the melt bin and was told that if I didn't buy it now, then it would be shipped off to be melted in a few hours. So I'm glad that I saved it! Report this Post to the Staff
Archraz Pillar of the Community United States 3499 Posts	Posted 01/26/2013 1:46 pm wonghinghi- Good eye in catching the shape of the Eagle's right claws. However, the coin that I posted at the start of this thread does not seem to have claws like that. Does that mean that the proof example that started this thread is in fact not an H62? If not, what would it be? Report this Post to the Staff
austrokiwi Pillar of the Community 2087 Posts	Posted 01/26/2013 6:59 pm Sometimes I find I need to go back to the basics. Hafner never cataloged the proof coins. Accordingly one could say it is impossible to give a Hafner number to a proof. In Hafners book H62 is blank It is only on Guenters website that a post 1986 strike is pictured as being attributed as H62 Checking Walter Hafners website he says this about H62: " mit zwei kleinen Punkten I'm Wappen wie die Taler vor 1960 Ã¤ltere Stempel verwendet?" Rough translation: "With two small dots in the center shield like pre-1960 thalers, Perhaps struck with old dies?" Proof coins would be struck from newly cut dies. The proper definition of a proof coin is that a polished blank is struck at least twice by polished dies ( However some mints will call a coin"Proof" when it has been struck once with polished dies). Assuming that the Vienna mint has been producing proof coins for 30 years it would be quite possible that there are subtle differences between proof coins. As I am sure they would have had to produce new dies from time to time. That said it could be argued that there may be no differences Because the proof dies might be produced from the same Plaster model each time. Effectively Hafners catalogue is out of date when it comes to post 1984 strikes. Edited by austrokiwi 01/27/2013 02:14 am Report this Post to the Staff
Archraz Pillar of the Community United States 3499 Posts	Posted 01/26/2013 8:06 pm austrokiwi- Thanks for the info! This is all very helpful. I just wonder if my proof is an earlier example since it does have the shorter talons. Even if there is only a 30 or so year history of proof strikes, it does show that H62 and other modern strikes are a bit more complex in terms of varieties than is evident from this singular grouping. Report this Post to the Staff
austrokiwi Pillar of the Community 2087 Posts	Posted 01/27/2013 04:23 am Hafner 51 Error coin: on the obverse, instead of "IMP" this variety has "IMI". As indicated earlier in the thread this was an expensive purchase. When I first obtained the coin I looked at the possibility that the missing loop of the "P" was due to manipulation or a very weak strike. However neither fear was realized. The low resolution of the photos makes it hard to see; the "I" is the same as the "I" used in other places on the coin and is very much like the uprights on the letter "H" Hopefully you will see that apart from the spelling error this coin is very similar to Archraz's 50a. However it does raise some questions about Wonghinghi's 50a example as the fonts of the letters on his coin are very different. If it were not for the 14mm "JUSTITIA" I would have thought it was another variety. In Hafners catalog it is noted that 50a has either 7 or 8 pearls in the diadem so clearly there was more than one die set used in producing this variety hence the font difference becomes more understandable(As an aside this exploration is making me more convinced that using types is much better than trying to describe every minor variation). Report this Post to the Staff
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