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To Clean Or Not Clean ?

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banknotelover's Avatar
Australia
218 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  03:23 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add banknotelover to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I recently got a coin back from PCGS which was not graded since it was 99 - PVC residue. I've had the coin looked at by several dealers who swear there is no pvc residue. I spoke to PCGS again, and they claim it's an extremely small amount not detectable unless using 'their special high tech equipment'.

OK. So now they have introduced me to the restoration service, which is probably where they give the coin a light acetone bath to remove the PVC residue.

My question to the experts is, shall I leave it how it is or go ahead with the restoration, then grading of the coin.

The main concern I have is obviously, will this damage the coin? The coin is very rare and is in the mid 5 figures USD value. So I'm very concerned when taking this step.

Oh and the last point which is very important to factor in is, the coin should grade around MS66-67 before any removal.

I have read a lot of blogs and forums on using acetone and restorations etc, but really wanted to hear from someone in the know dealing with high end coins and cleaning.
Edited by banknotelover
01/17/2013 03:40 am
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CoinsKelly's Avatar
United States
3453 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  05:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do YOU believe there is residue? It sounds like others do not and I don't blame you for being very careful with an expensive coin.

Have you considered sending it into NGC or ANACS before attempting a cleaning?
Valued Member
banknotelover's Avatar
Australia
218 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  08:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add banknotelover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have considered sending it another service. Hmmmm. I kinda do believe them only because it is possible to have residue and it not to be seen by the eye and also they have no reason I would think being a huge company and all to lie about it. Hmm I dunno

I'm just not entirely sure if after the removal whether it will get a numerical ms grading or not. I read some more about it and apparently you can still achieve a ms grade as per normal without any notes or removal etc
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I regularly run into Morgans which show no PVC activity to the naked eye, yet under the high magnification of my imaging equipment it pops out in small spots. It's quite possible that PCGS saw the same, and you can assume that they aren't wrong. This is a problem which must be corrected. It's a progressive process which can only be fixed by removing the PVC; otherwise the damage will eventually become permanent and disfiguring.

1) Is the coin silver? Acetone is chemically incapable of reacting with silver, even alloyed silver. It is completely benign in that application. You - or your designated "conserver" - can use it with confidence on a silver coin.

2) Is there any non-mint color on the coin which can't be explicitly identified as natural toning? Acetone has absolutely no effect on natural toning as that is essentially still silver. However, if there's anything on the coin which is postmint and not silver, acetone may remove that and leave an unnatural patch of color because the surface underneath has not aged like the rest of the coin.

If the answers to the above two questions are favorable, I would have no qualms about treating the coin myself, even cognizant of its' value. Not being expert in its' use, you may have a different level of tolerance. Either way, act on what PCGS is saying. It's a safe, simple process, to the extent that many collectors (myself included) bathe every single eligible coin they acquire in acetone just to be safe.
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banknotelover's Avatar
Australia
218 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  2:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add banknotelover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SuperDAve...
Wow after reading your post I feel a little more confident and better about it all... Since you seem adament that it will not harm the coin. The coin is silver... Would you suggest I use the l pcgs restoration service just to be sure as I've never used acetone before and obviously would hate to stuff it up! ? Oh my other concern is you know how you see those over shiny coins that look kinda weird? I hope it won't turn out like that .. Not sure what to expect...
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am adamant; although no chemist, I am knowledgeable in this specific circumstance. I have to reiterate, though - the coin must have nothing external and post-Mint on it because of my previous caution about removing something which would expose surfaces which haven't aged at the same rate as the rest of the coin. I'm going to guess, given your evaluation of the coin, that nothing such exists.

If that be true, if the coin is either original luster or only natural toning, neither you nor PCGS will see any difference whatsoever in the appearance of the coin after the acetone. That is simple fact.

In your shoes, as long as the cost is within your comfort zone, I'd submit it (in the current slab, don't crack it) to PCGS' conservation service. I'm surprised that they did not make this recommendation to you when they determined PVC was involved.

Are you willing to specifically identify the coin? "No" is a perfectly understandable answer, reticence being always a virtue when discussing high-end coins, but knowing that might enable me to more specifically tailor my answer as differing coins tend to age differently. I - or someone else better-situated than I with that particular issue - might be able to more clearly state what should be considered "normal" with the current appearance.
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mds308's Avatar
United States
1721 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mds308 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SsuperDdave,

I'm under the impression the coin is not in a slab. I'm assuming they sent the coin back in a Mylar flip. Maybe I'm wrong and the original poster can clear this up for me.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  4:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm under the impression the coin is not in a slab. I'm assuming they sent the coin back in a Mylar flip.


No, you're right. I retain my title as CCF's most prominent proponent of incomplete reading comprehension.
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banknotelover's Avatar
Australia
218 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add banknotelover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They returned it. 99 genuine and won't holder pvc residue coins. Superdave. you have been more helpful than all the pcgs guys so far. I will update more later once I speak to them.
One thing for sure is I don't really have a choice but to get it restored since over time or will deteriorate.
I just hope that it will after acetone it will be given a standard numerical grade and not genuine no grade etc.
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BadThad's Avatar
United States
19944 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2013  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If the coin really is that valuable, I'd send it to NCS.
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2013  03:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Id need to know the approximate value of the coin to say what I would do but without knowing I would have two rules for dealing with it.

If it was that valuable and I had even the slightest doubt about doing it myself I would send it in and let them do it.

If I were going to do it myself I would practice and some other coins first and see how they turn out before attempting it on that one or deciding if I was going to do it myself.
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