Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsSpecializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall 300,000 items to help build your collection! Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Gilt Proof, 18thc Off-Metal Error, Silvered 18thc Penny

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 4 / Views: 1,343Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2013  10:02 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
All from the U.K. See johnmenc on E-Bay.

I also do personal XRF analyses for patrons doing research or for coins in your collection which you need to know the alloys.

John Lorenzo
United States
E-Bay Seller: johnmenc
Valued Member
Changeless's Avatar
273 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2013  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Changeless to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John, when you say "XRF" if you are talking about one of those desk top "X-ray" metal testers, this a wonderful gadget and I highly recommend it. For example, if I was into buying expensive rare coins or ingots, immediately upon receipt I would take every purchase over to you for testing of the metallic content as a basic authentication measure.
There is a friendly 'junk silver' buyer on the corner near me. He has this thing about the size of HP printer/scanner. He puts a coin or jewelry piece in the machine and a picture of it shows up on his computer screen. He can then select areas to "test" and get a read out of the percentage mix of the metals that make up the piece. It would spot a counterfeit gold plated ingot with ease.
This fellow claims that he has tested many Morgan dollars and finds that not all Morgans are the same. Some have up to 91 to 92 percent range of silver (as I recall him saying). I have trouble believing the U.S. mint would be that "sloppy" so maybe these are the really 'good' fakes that actually have the expected silver content (I read about these somewhere). Or maybe his machine is not as accurate as he thinks.
Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And P.S. For the record, I am into buying very expensive rare coins although I have yet the be able to afford one.
Pillar of the Community
colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2013  11:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At EDAX the company I work for we build the top selling/designed XRF analyzers in the world along with our main competitor Oxford Instruments. Since I joined Ametek/EDAX I have corresponded with many collectors (~50 collectors/researchers) including Mike Diamond from Coin World on some U.S. Off-metal error XRF analyses. The recent article being that Brassy Lincoln Cent article which appeared in Collectors Clearinghouse in Coin World recently. To answer your question directly - The surface enrichment of silver copper alloys has been recognized for many years. In a typical regal (i.e., legitimate) example if made with silver say at ~ 90.0% as with a Morgan dollar the surface layer can achieve levels in the expected 90-94% range and within the core of the coin it's probably as low as 74-76%. With time, surface corrosion and the cooling down annealing process during the blank making process, silver tends to the surface of the blank and copper forms copper rich areas throughout the interior of the coin. A silver-copper alloy coin is NEVER homogenous in all its areas. The current research paper on this phenomenon is explain in L. Beck "Silver Surface Enrichment of Silver-Copper Alloys; A limitation for the analysis of ancient silver coins by surface techniques (June, 2004). So for Morgan dollars the silver levels will fluctuate proably in the 90-94% range (possibly higher?) if the base silver during production was 90% as is currently reported by the U.S. Mint. See my company at http://www.edax.com. The unit we use is the Orbis a micro-EDXRF unit which is much more powerful/sensitive than the simple hand gun types - but this person is correct - the silver values will fluctuate from Morgan to Morgan and Peace dollar to Peace dollar. Understand also we "never" expect the surface Ag readings to be below 90% - NEVER. If we see this and the weight tends to drop outside the expected weight range this suggest a counterfeit. Of course there a good and bad counterfeits ... but that's another story <BG>.
Edited by colonialjohn
01/31/2013 11:22 am
Valued Member
Changeless's Avatar
273 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2013  11:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Changeless to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is fascinating. Thanks for going into detail and the link. I've got some reading ahead of me, just more fun. I love this stuff.
Pillar of the Community
colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2013  1:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When we describe alloys of coins we collect ... most fall short or are incorrect. The further back in time we go the more the descriptions are in error or are not fully descriptive of the correct alloy. Such as bronze and brass ... and what is exactly is white metal? Is white metal a default term for catalougers that really do not know what the alloy is of a coin or medal?

John Lorenzo
United States
  Previous TopicReplies: 4 / Views: 1,343Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.24 seconds to rattle this change. Forums