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Replies: 22 / Views: 2,120 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9796 Posts |
My thought process? Hmmm, the reverse has very little wear, the head on the obverse is quite full with plenty of detail. Once the second batch of photos was posted it allowed for me to tell there was still quite a bit of luster underneath, even from surviving a past of dipping and a couple of light cleanings (IMO). There is almost no underlying issues I can tell, no tooling, or whizzing/polishing areas that are common with the whole half and dollar seated series. No scratches or any other damage, a very nice original example, if it had never been wiped or dipped I suspect it would be in a MS62 holder today. TPGs won't always asign a details grade on a dipped coin, even if it's obvious, this is one area I've found very inconsistent with all of them. I suppose years of shooting photos for a living and now doing post processing of my astronomy photos, has helped me see things that don't show up in a photo to the average person. If that makes any sense. I've lit enough photo shoots to be able to tell where the light source is and usually how many lights are used. I have to rely on intuition with static photos and grading coins. It is aways best to hold the coin in hand in person and do a cartwheel roll under a good light source to see surface defects and wear areas, since this can't be done online (yet) easily without video, I kind of guess how the coin would look to me if I was doing that IRL. I enjoy the grading section here the best at CCF. Since I no longer deal coins and attend many shows, I miss out looking at 1000's of coins every week. One thing anyone can do to observe first hand really rare coins and stuff you wouldn't normally get to hold and examine, is to attend auction viewing. You can hold and examine a 1913 Liberty nickel if you want, under supervision of course), but an auction house lets all view and study the coins they will be selling later. One can learn a lot from looking and handling a lot of coins that you might not otherwise get a chance to. So if you've never been to a big coin auction I heartily recommend it to all coin collectors.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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Pillar of the Community
United States
836 Posts |
Well I over graded it. I said AU55 in my head at first glance. Amazing coin
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1304 Posts |
Thanks westcoin for your insight and experience. I have been studying the effects of improper cleaning such as whizzing, tooling or really bad wiping, but I find it is tough to tell with certainty when it comes to dipped coins, so I am almost assuming (particularly if it is raw) that a silver coin that looks bright but lacking the luster one would expect, or if it looks a dull gray, then it is likely dipped. I definitely avoid the ones that have been overdipped as those are relatively apparent in their dullness of color. There must be a certain tolerance for properly dipped coins in the collecting community, otherwise I would expect a lot of these coins, such as mine, to receive more detail grades. But I now know to be on the lookout for the color and toning that an old silver coin should project, especially when it comes to buying raw. This section of the forum in particular helps me out in that respect. It's a wonderful resource. Thanks to everyone!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9796 Posts |
EFLargeCents - Dipping is an acidic process that attacks the surface of the metal, the lustre is produced from very, very tiny "flow lines" as the coin is being struck under tons of pressure, very fast, heats the coin up and displaces metal, allowing for the metal to move, or flow into all the devices cut on the die in a radial pattern. These flow lines when disturbed will change how the light reflects off them. whether it's from a tiny hit or a large ding that is why scratches show up shiny when new. The dipping or repeated dipping will eat into the flow lines and cause the coin to lose luster each time the coin is dipped. Too much will basically wear the flow lines down to flow nubs and light won't reflect at the same angles, dulling the coin. I found this online from a reference, I think it explains it a little better than I can: In the pre-machine age, coinage blanks (planchettes) were heated to just before their melting temperatures and struck between dies on an anvil to create the metal flow necessary to fill the die and impart the die's design. In the first half of the 17th century machines were introduced that created enough pressure, and therefore heat, to create metal flow. The collar was also introduced to prevent the planchette from expanding beyond its prescribed diameter. In 1838, the steam press was introduced in the United States, and this technology increased the striking pressure as well as the speed of minting. The heat generated by a coin press literally melts the planchette for a fraction of a second. As the metal flows into the recesses of the dies, catalytic heat and oxygen in the air combines with the surface of the newly minted coin. A clear oxide film includes oxygen trapped from the moment of the creation of that coin. The effect of metal flow also creates tiny radial lines that emanate from the coin's center to the rim. Flow lines are essential to the presence of mint luster and are responsible for the cartwheel effect on U.S. Silver Dollars. In the absence of wear on the high spots of a coin's design, the existence of unbroken flow lines defines mint state condition. copied from http://www.coinsite.com/content/art...s/CMO-AO.aspHope that helps explain what I was thinking on calling this one. I did nail it grade wise, my cleaning call was due to over dipping, I've had many Morgans body bagged because of a lack of original luster from over dipping. Took me quite awhile and several thousand dollars before I got decent at telling for sure. in hand it's not too hard once you know what you're looking for, via static photos online it's a lot harder. Metal flow is best seen as one cartwheels the coin under a lamp while looking at it, usually with no magnification what so ever.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1304 Posts |
westcoin, your commentary about how to tell in hand what luster remains, and the effects that dipping has on that luster is a great help! I now have an idea how to, in person, tell with these brighter coins if the dipping process has been over done to the point where the luster no longer exhibits when cartwheeling the coin under light. I tried this on my 1855-O and there still is some luster as you can see the expected effect of the light. There is obviously more cartwheel with some of my nicer Morgan dollars though. Thanks again for the help, great information!
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
933 Posts |
The problem is coins are graded usually stronger on what the obverse is, going from what I have gathered from my own experience and seen
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9796 Posts |
No problem EFLargeCents, thanks for the appreciation, I just like to share my knowledge and help others along so our hobby keeps going! Glad you got some of my points in my late night ramblings.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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Replies: 22 / Views: 2,120 |
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