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 Replies: 28 / Views: 4,900 |
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Valued Member
Canada
286 Posts |
Poll Question
A debate has started over which side of a coin is more important when grading a coin. I would like to hear members opinions here.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9865 Posts |
There is no debate.It's a fact that with a few exceptions Canadian grading is weighed heavily in favour of the obverse grade.This has been a tradition for many years and is the practice of all reputable TPG's. "Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
I welcome this thread as my previous post may have been the reason for this survey.
Of course, I voted a resounding 'YES'.
I believe the 'no' voters are thinking in theoretical or 'textbook' sense and are ignoring the reality of the situation.
Anyone (such as myself) who has sent hundreds of coins to ICCS, spoken to Brian Cornwell and other prominant US and Canadian dealers, realizes that it is a 'no brainer' that the obverse is more important when grading a coin.
Honestly, I'm shocked at the initial results that have been posted.
Edited by doubleeagle59
03/03/2013 2:18 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
Perhaps I can relate to you a personal experience I had recently with ICCS.
I submitted an expensive coin (plus $5K) that I feel should have graded as an ms66.
Brian returned it to me as an ms65.
He said (and I quote)..."it is an ms66, but because of the blemish on the reverse, I could only go ms65".
Now before everyone pipes in "Doubleeagle59 we told you so. The reverse IS evenly weighted to the obverse".
Brian Cornwell at ICCS followed up his initial statement with this...."and if this blemish was on the OBVERSE, I would have only graded the coin an ms64".
Thereby proving (in this instance) that the highest respected grading authority in Canada puts more grading emphasis on the obverse than the reverse.
This is only an isolated case, but trust me, this is reality grading, especially when dealing with ICCS.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
716 Posts |
Rich Snow's grading guide on IHC which he published on his website makes no mention of the reverse nor does he include any pictures of the reverse. His grades are based strictly on characteristics of the obverse. I guess this is OK if both sides are in the same state of preservation, but how does this affect the grade of a coin when there are major differences in wear, luster, etc. between the two sides. How much can the reverse bring down the grade of a coin if it is in significantly worse condition than the obverse? |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
Let's understand, the reverse is still considered in determining the coins' grade.
Graders do not overlook this fact.
However, I don't want to keep stating the obvious fact that the obverse carries more importance than the reverse.
In the very few cases where the reverse is 'greatly' lower than the obverse, then in these rare instances perhaps the reverse side is considered equally or more than the obverse.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2426 Posts |
Please take a look at the 1936 Dot penny which is on the Auction block and let me know if the opinion or rule applies to this coin!
All opinions are appreciated!
Edited by darryldarryl
03/03/2013 10:10 pm
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Valued Member
Canada
190 Posts |
There is not really anything to "debate" about on this issue...
It has been accepted numismatic practice that obverse conditon of coin holds more weight in the grading process...
The following factors result in the average coin having a better condition obverse than reverse...
For a variety of reasons the obverse dies wore out more quickly than the reverse, leading to weaker strikes than for reverse... partially to do with shape and details of portrait impressions, but also because they were the top "hammer" die, resulting in more wear...
Because of the convex nature of portrait impressions the obverse side has a tendency to accumulate more circulation wear because of the exposure of high points...
I look at hundreds of coins per day... almost always the reverse shows less wear than the obverse...
Interestingly, in Australia and some other countries, when the condition on one side of coin varies from that on the other side, it is common practice to report the two gradings separately... eg. F12/VF20, with the first grade attributed to the obverse...
Take care, and Have a Great Monday... :)
cameron93
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Valued Member
 Canada
286 Posts |
Quote:
It has been accepted numismatic practice that obverse conditon of coin holds more weight in the grading process... Can you cite your source? Quote:
Because of the convex nature of portrait impressions the obverse side has a tendency to accumulate more circulation wear because of the exposure of high points... This is fundamentally impossible, how is the portrait more convex than the moose or beaver etc.? How can it be exposed to more wear than the opposite side of a coin? |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Whoever said reverse should pm me. I'm going to go through my collection and find some coins to offer you a deal on.
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Valued Member
Canada
99 Posts |
I think it is unfortunate that the obverse is so much more heavily weighted in grading. Personally as a coin has two sides I think they should both be weighted equally into the grading. That being said I am more than happy with the standards as my main condition when purchasing coins is that I can make out the date especailly when it comes to key dates.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
Quote:
as a coin has two sides I think they should both be weighted equally into the grading I'm fairly new compared to a lot of collectors here but I agree. until they start making slabs & 2x2s one sided i'll keep both sides equally in mind when considering a coin. if you disagree.... ok.... but if you were looking at a coin with MS65 rev and MS66 obv are you telling me you would pay MS66 prices? of course when you own the same coin you want it to grade MS66. guess it depends "which side of the coin" you are on... |
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Valued Member
Canada
190 Posts |
Hey, Wade... with all due respect... it's not about agreeing or dis-agreeing, or "which side of the coin your on"... it's about historical fact and reality of numismatic practice... Re-read doubleeagle's earlier comments... re Brian Cornwell at ICCS: Quote:
"the highest respected grading authority in Canada puts more grading emphasis on the obverse than the reverse" No one is saying that the grade of the obverse is the definitive grade of the coin... Obviously both sides of coin are to be considered... What we are saying is that it is a long standing numismatic practice that the obverse carries a bit more weight when determining overall grade... This is accepted standard not only by professional graders but by most knowledgeable and experienced collectors... I find it hard to believe that anyone even wants to debate this... it is widespread accepted fact. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
not debating IF it is the standard practice, I just dont see how it makes any sense. but hey, I'm new here :)
i focus more on world coins, often a coin is given a grade for both sides, with 'value' leaning towards the lower of the two. it just seems to be a more common sense approach.
now I am curious who decided the queen was more important than the beaver or cariboo?
maybe I'm alone in this, but when I line up a type set I would rather look at the variety of rev's than the same monarch's effigy over and over and over again.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
Over the past 15 years, I've done quite well buying raw coins and sending them to ICCS and receiving the grades I think they should be.
Whether I spend 10 seconds or 10 minutes looking over the raw coin, I can tell you this.....
I spend 90% of my grading time on the obverse and 10% of my time on the reverse.
Actually, I only grade the obverse and I look quickly at the reverse only to see there's no major anomoly as compared to the obverse.
After quickly looking at the reverse, I would only have to adjust my 'obverse grade' if the reverse was TWO grades lower than the obverse. Put another way, I feel ICCS would only change the grade of the coin (initially determined by the obv condition) if the reverse was two or more grades LOWER.
If the reverse was one grade lower than the obverse or ANY grade higher than the obverse, I'd feel confident ICCS would grade the coin based on the obverse and not make an adjustment based on the previously mentioned difference in the reverse grade.
Hope that's not too confusing.
Edited by doubleeagle59
03/05/2013 3:36 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3486 Posts |
cameron93 What a blast from the past! There was a time when US coins were graded this way: F12/VF20. Both sides separately. Heck, it was F/VF as numbers were not in use yet. Nowadays, people ( read: investors) want things simple: a single number, guaranteed. All collectors have a little investor in each. Precious few investors are interested in coins AS COINS. This gives me and other collectors like me an edge. You know, we try to share this insight but, sadly, few are willing to listen. P. S. I voted "equal importance" and I care not what "professionals" say. P. P. S I also vote my pocketbook! It's tough to walk away from a coin, but tougher to live with a coin that is "Gee, if only ..." Edited by matthewvincent
03/05/2013 4:01 pm
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Replies: 28 / Views: 4,900 |
Posted 03/03/2013 2:18 pm
