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1916 Mule Halfpenny

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Australia
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 Posted 06/02/2013  12:11 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add knast111 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
hi, just looking at 1916 mule halfpenny on the net. would a faded one still be worth something if I found one while collecting? not that I have just curious. thanks

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Mr T's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 06/02/2013  02:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There's only like 10 or so known examples so yes, any that you find would be worth tens of thousands of dollars. That said, finding one now would be pretty unlikely. Most would have come out of the wood-work before the decimal changeover (they were first publicised around that era).
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Australia
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 Posted 06/02/2013  03:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add knast111 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, and are there fakes out there? How would you spot a copy or fake one.
I read a thread on a fake on up for sale but how would you tell
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Mr T's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 06/02/2013  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are but given that all the known mules are all nearly 100 years old and fairly well used and the fakes I've seen are shiny and uncirculated, they're not hard to pick.
I don't know of any quality fakes though but I don't go actively seeking them either.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16867 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2013  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One could, in theory, make a fake mule by taking two normal coins - one 1916 Australian halfpenny and one Indian 1/4 anna from the George V period - and destroying them. Use a sander to grind flat the unwanted side of one of the coins (say, the reverse of the Indian one) and then use a lathe to hollow out the unwanted side on the other coin, leaving a shallow bowl the flattened remnant of the first coin can fit inside. Magicians use this technique to make double-headed and doubled-tailed coins; see this thread for some American examples of such coins, and for illustrations on spotting the telltale seam.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Mr T's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 06/02/2013  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, never say never. The method Sap mentioned is probably the only way to get something believable, but the weight would likely be off.
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Fuzzy317's Avatar
United States
14463 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2013  03:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Fuzzy317 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
*** knast111, combining your two threads ***


Quote:
hi , do you think this is real, its quite worn. I have compared it to an original and everything seems perfect, any ideas.


1916-Mule-Halfpenny
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2013  03:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Most of the mules of this coin in magazine articles I have read prove them with X - ray analysis.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16867 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2013  04:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We'd have to see the other side.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Mr T's Avatar
Australia
2180 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2013  02:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Post a picture of the rim too.
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Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2013  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is another possibility for making the 1916 mule. The Indians restruck a number of coins in the 1960s for collectors using old dies (such as the pennies and halfpennies from WW2). So that means that not only did they retain old dies but they saw the money making potential.
For all we know an enterprising mint curator (a David Gee wannabe?) could find the old dies (unless they were destroyed) and make a few more mules, maybe even make mules that never existed such as Raj era dies paired to Republic of India dies.
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Australia
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 Posted 07/12/2013  8:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have considered that but my conclusion was only 'maybe'. The 1916 halfpennies were struck at Calcutta I believe while most of the restrikes were done at Bombay (maybe at Calcutta too, I haven't fully investigated this). I don't know what happened to the Calcutta Mint's dies when it closed in 1952 though.

edit: apparently the Calcutta Mint moved in 1952 and at some point it transferred its dies to the Bombay Mint to make restrikes.
Edited by Mr T
07/13/2013 07:21 am
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2013  11:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A two half, joined - together fake mule could be easily revealed by ring tone.
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Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2013  07:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mr T
Is there any info available about which coins were restrikes in the 1960s besides the penny and halfpenny?
IIRC the Indian mints struck coins for many countries and I did read once that there were restrikes done to collector orders where they requested mismatched dies (mules)and those were struck.
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Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2013  08:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
UPDATE
Mr Ts references to the Calcutta mint closing and transferring dies got my brain trying to remember details about the Mint.
I keep an extensive cross referenced book of references (and again I admit to being anal). Found a reference to the Calcutta mint in the Australian Coin Review (Jan 1968 pages 5-6).
It was a first person account of Allan Gally and his report first appeared in The Canadian Numismatic Journal. He toured the Indian mints and noted that Calcutta mint had 50 presses and Bombay 40 and they use 120,000 dies a year.
There seems to be errors in the article as it references the old building being built in 1824 (and the Calcutta Mint website confirms it closed in 1952 and a new mint opened nearby in Alipore).
The interesting part was this paragraph:
"A section of the Calcutta Mint is
put aside for the striking of
'genuine' coins for anyone ordering
them. Working punches and dies
of coins that have ever been struck
by the Indian Mints are stored
there and, for a price, anyone can
have a rare coin. These restrikes
are sent all over the world to any
collector requesting them. At one
time, the Mint struck early Aus-
tralian coins (they originally struck
these for the Australian Govern-
ment, hence the dies were on file),
but the australian Government
raised such strong protests that
India returned the dies to Aus-
tralia."
Then the article goes on about the problem of counterfeiting in India. Then another interesting paragraph.
"A quantity of the counterfeit
coins have seemingly been struck
from original dies that must have
been smuggled out of the Mint at
one time or another. A display
cabinet contains over 200 pairs of
dies that have been confiscated
from counterfeiters."
As the article references the return of dies to Australia (and that was in the 1960s) then if only the 1942-43 dies were returned what happened to the 1916-18 dies? and if they still existed in the early 1960s (when the restrikes happened) then why didn't a collector request restrikes of them as well?
So did nobody think to request them, or had they been misplaced (easy with that volume of dies over many years).
Perhaps someone in Canada might have access to the original CNJ article to see if the ACR editor added erroneous details?
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Mr T's Avatar
Australia
2180 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2013  8:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
nealeffendi, I don't know all the details of the restrikes but I have a book on Indian coins that says the Bombay Mint restruck (or could have restruck) most coins made in India's mints. Lots of Indian restrikes were made, the 1942 and 1942 Australian coppers were restruck and someone on this forum posted a Straits Settlements mule which I assume was a restrike.
I also happened across that article you mentioned yesterday and I think it was the Bombay Mint, not the Calcutta Mint that was doing restrikes based on what I have read elsewhere.
I assume the 1916 to 1918 dies were either misplaced or sent to Australia (I think some 1920 pennies were struck with dies sent from India).
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