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TPG Angst - The Fight Continues

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paleoguy45's Avatar
United States
2936 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2013  11:44 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add paleoguy45 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A while back I started a thread about the 1914/3 Buffalo I had sent to NGC for grading and attribution that came back as simply a 1914P. Well, it was a bust on me because they (NGC) don't attribute that particular coin any longer as SuperDave pointed out. Round two started with me sending the coin to PCGS (along with an extra $24 for attribution fees). I received the coin back today also as a straight up 1914P and not a 1914/3. What's going on here?! The coin was broken out of a SEGS slab and while SEGS is not known for its grading abilities, it does/did tend to get things right as to authenticity/variety. They even indicated the dies were MDS in this particular strike. I've attached some more photos of the coin and heartily solicit opinions as to its attribution. These "going no where" fee are killing me!! Paleoguy

TPG-Angst---The-Fight-Continues TPG-Angst---The-Fight-Continues

TPG-Angst---The-Fight-Continues TPG-Angst---The-Fight-Continues
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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23522 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2013  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ten minutes worth of research offered me this:

1) 1914/3 is thought to be a Master Die or hubbing thing. There are overdates known from all 3 mints, and some think the overdates may be on every single die produced, whether you can see them or not. Multiple different Philadelphia dies are known, but only the originally-discovered die is referred to as FS-101.

2) PCGS only attributes FS-101, and neither of the branch mints.

3) It's going to take a real expert to conclusively attribute yours, in such a worn condition. I don't even know if it's possible. Quite frankly, I'm not taking SEGS' word for it unless they state their specific reasons; I know them to have made (are maybe still making) one egregious misattribution error with 1921 Morgans which has cost me confidence in them.
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westcoin's Avatar
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9792 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2013  5:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bill Fivaz or JT Stanton ( Cherry Pickers Guide authors) may be able to help, David Lange is considered one of the foremost authorities on Buffalos so contacting his also could lead you in your search for the answer. I can't tell on your coin, nor do I have that level of experience with Buffalo varieties. Good luck.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

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Kopper Ken's Avatar
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3402 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2013  07:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Getting to the poiny:

I just do not see it!

KK
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paleoguy45's Avatar
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2936 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2013  09:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paleoguy45 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's final trip will be to ANACS. After that, hmmmmmmmmm...
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jerseyben's Avatar
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1211 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2013  10:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jerseyben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If the top 2 aren't attributing this, maybe that is a good indicator that this is not worth pursuing...

Sorry to be so blunt, but maybe time to cut your losses. Best of luck.
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paleoguy45's Avatar
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 Posted 06/30/2013  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paleoguy45 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The saga continues.............
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
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36710 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2013  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sent a 1914/3 Buffalo into PCGS. Previous to that I sent photos of the coin to David Lange to confirm it was the overdate. He told me he thought it was the over date and also told me NGC does not acknowledge that variety because their graders can not do it with consistency. So off to PCGS it went. The coin came back in a regular PCGS 1914 holder as MS-64 and with a note that they only list the 14/3 die pair 2 (the one in the Cherry Pickers Guide) as the over date. Mine was die pair 6 with a very clear over date but to them, didn't matter. Also talked to Ron Pope about it. He has written a book called Buffalo nickels, The Abraded Die Varieties. Sold the coin but only for a fraction of what a die pair 2 would go for.
Edited by IndianGoldEagle
06/30/2013 8:11 pm
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
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 Posted 06/30/2013  8:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are some shots from Ron Pope's book on what the Die Pair 2 (FS#-05-1914P-101) should look like. It is the only one PCGS will ID as the overdate. PCGS will be looking for the heavy die polish marks around the top of the 4.

TPG-Angst---The-Fight-Continues
TPG-Angst---The-Fight-Continues
Edited by IndianGoldEagle
06/30/2013 8:45 pm
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861 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2013  01:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add g048406 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While I am CERTAINLY NOT an expert on Buffalo nickels, your coin appears to be the same type as one currently listed on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-3-BUFF...em5d2d9d09ef
This eBayer claims it is a FS#-014.87 overdate.
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paleoguy45's Avatar
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2936 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2013  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paleoguy45 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thoughts anyone on ANACS? I think day in and day out they do the best job of attributing they just don't get the premium that the "big two" do. With the coin in hand I "appear" to be able to pick out all the characteristics of pair '2' including the die chip under the chin. PG
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