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 Replies: 16 / Views: 2,842 |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18663 Posts |
Do counterstamps on old coppers make a coin virtually worthless other than to counterstamp collectors?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4416 Posts |
There are many collectors who harbor that opinion, but I've found that the majority do not think that counterstamped coins are virtually worthless. The prices that better counterstamps have fetched on ebay have gotten the serious attention of many such collectors and dealers. Without the counterstamp, my avatar is maybe a $100 copper. Given the early gunsmith counterstamp, it would likely fetch twice that or more from a serious collector of these historic pieces. To a date collector, it'd be worth maybe $50 or so. I'd say. Obviously, when selling such a piece, one hopes to find a buyer who recognizes the worth of a piece. Were this coin say a new or NC (non-collectable) variety, it would be worth more to a Sheldon variety collector. despite the marks. A dealer friend of mine once had an early copper coin with a desirable, blacksmith's counterstamp. He wanted $15 for it. I gave him five times that price, noting that an old catalog value was probably over $100. I later confirmed that it was. So, I subsequently sold him some coins that he could profit from, and he's since located some counterstamps for my collection. I saw more value in what he was selling and he saw more value in what I was selling. A coin's worth is in the eye of the beholder. It'salways best to have an educated eye ... |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18663 Posts |
What is a gunsmith counterstamp? Are all counterstamps gunsmith?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4416 Posts |
A gunsmith, Lemuel Pomeroy of Pittsfield, Massachusetts, counterstamed my avatar coin. The marks on the coin match those on the rifles he manufactured. This coin was likely stamped in 1826 as Lemuel had a contract to produce rifles for the state militia that year. He counterstamped other coins, too, with other contract years. The JC mark is likely the initials of an inspector. As there are so few of these Pomeroy counterstamps known, the coins were perhaps more of a means to confirm or identify his product marks; this, as opposed to having been stamped to serve as a means of circulating advertising.
Gunsmiths were but one occupation of hundreds that utilized counterstamps. Silversmiths, coppersmiths, cutlers, toolmakers, machinists and dozens of other metals' tradesmen utilized counterstamps. Some doctors and dentists stamped their tools, as did many who sought to protect their possessions, their patents and and their wares. Counterstamped coins were stamped by all manner of establishments that catered to the public, too: hotels, saloons, minstrel shows, restaurants, etc. It's been estimated that, during the 1850's, maybe 10% of the coins then in circulation had been counterstamped; this, mostly as a form of word-of-mouth advertising. With the onset of the Civil War, the number of circulating coins diminished greatly, and the practice of counterstamping consequently lost its appeal.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2757 Posts |
this collector of large cents believes any counterstamp renders the coin basically worthless. But I respect those who collect them!
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
In some cases, counterstamps can add plenty to value, if the counterstamp is government official.
In other cases, the same coins can be more valuable WITHOUT the official counterstamp.
Quite often, the official counterstamp has been done to re face value the coin.
Private counterstamps can amount to not much more than Post Mint Damage.
Edited by sel_69l
07/02/2013 01:06 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
18663 Posts |
ExoGuy, thanks for the history lesson. I had no idea what they were used for. I had thought it was just someone defacing a coin.
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Valued Member
United States
373 Posts |
Although I understand the desirability of a coin that has beaten all odds to remain virtually untouched by time - the mint state coin - I have never understood the dismissal of coins that proudly display their history via counterstamps and other use-related features. Some counterstamps are fantastic in and of themselves, and to me add interest to otherwise commonplace coins. Others offer me opportunities to add a coin to my collection that I otherwise might not be able to afford. My first Seated Liberty dollar had AU details, and its handsome and historic counterstamp (it belonged to one of the original "miner forty-niners") made it affordable. Here's an old copper that gained a lot of value from its counterstamp: http://stacksbowers.com/auctions/Au...LotID=258580And although this one certainly lost value from its counterstamp, it remained far from worthless, selling in the five figures: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...4&lotNo=1050 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4416 Posts |
Always glad to hear your thoughts on my favorite numismatic topic, folks, being counterstamps. Naturally, we all have somewhat differing thoughts and opinions, and that's what makes this forum so interesting. Here are some of my thoughts on the most recent comments: Quote:
... this collector of large cents believes any counterstamp renders the coin basically worthless Consider that THE rarest U.S. coin, in terms of dollars paid, was a counterstamped coin. A Brasher Doubloon, dated 1787, fetched well over seven million dollars in 2011. Try telling the bidders that coin is worthless!  Quote:
Quite often, the official counterstamp has been done to re face value the coin. My experience in collecting counterstamps for thirty years now tells me otherwise. Probably, only 1% of the 2,000 counterstamped coins in my collection have been stamped with intent to revalue the host coin. My focus has been on U.S. merchant counterstamps though. This statement probably rings true for a collector of world and ancient countermarks though. When it comes to the U.S. counterstamps, the revaluation by private merchants was mostly done, unofficially so, out of necessity during economically hard times. Quote:
Private counterstamps can amount to not much more than Post Mint Damage. While it's true that counterstamps are, in effect, post mint damage, these private issues are my personal preference. I enjoy attributing the counterstamps and learning what I can about the individuals who punched the coins with their brand. These counterstamped coins reveal much about history, telling us where they've been and so much more ... IMHO, the revalued world countermarks can't "hold a candle" to the private issues of our early American inventors and entrepreneurs! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8904 Posts |
Nice education for us all, Exoguy!!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4416 Posts |
Thanks, Moe .... To me, the study of counterstamps offers a never ending opportunity for learning and discovery. All in all, I find myself being far more of a student, a detective even, than a teacher.
ProfLiz, those are excellent examples you've posted to drive home the value and detraction that counterstamps can have. Have you ever searched early, 1800's auction records or catalogs for the appearance of that Franklin counterstamp? It's a beauty!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4416 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
373 Posts |
ExoGuy, I find that Franklin counterstamp to be way cool - and given the prices it draws, collectors agree!
I do not actively collect counterstamps, although I enjoy them when they come my way. I am always amazed at the detective work done by counterstamp collectors to attribute and understand the markings. These humble "defaced" coins carry fascinating history, which counterstamp collectors bring to light.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
652 Posts |
I well appreciate the added value of identifiable counterstamps. but those Franklin counterstamps look too newly produced to me. JMHO.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3229 Posts |
Cool thread!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4416 Posts |
I finally got around to checking my book on merchant counterstamps to see what Brunk wrote about the Franklin marks on large cents. The die used is of Civil War vintage, Fuld patriotic die #153. However, the earliest appearance of one of these counterstamped large cents that Brunk could find in his research was in 1942. Brunk did not cite the source, be it an auction, sale catalog or? It's his opinion that these large cents were counterstamped with the 153 die long after the Civil War.
IMHO, if the die is still out there, future specimens may appear; especially so, given the rarity of die #153, coupled with the prices that these pieces have fetched in today's market.
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Replies: 16 / Views: 2,842 |
Posted 07/01/2013 8:16 pm
